Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Public Hearing

April 4, 2002

Commission Hearing Room
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744

                                                                   1


             6             BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the 

             7    4th day of April, 2002, there came on to be heard 

             8    matters under the regulatory authority of the 

             9    Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in the 

            10    commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and 

            11    Wildlife Headquarters complex, Austin, Travis 

            12    County, Texas, beginning at 9:00 a.m., to wit:

            13    

            14    
                  APPEARANCES:
            15    THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
                  
            16       Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas, 
                           Chairman
            17       Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman, Midland, 
                           Texas 
            18       John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas 
                     Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
            19       Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas  (Absent)
                     Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas
            20       Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
                     Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
            21       Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
                  
            22    THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
                     Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other 
            23    personnel of the Parks and Wildlife Department.
                  
            24    

            25    





.
                                                                   2

             1    OTHERS PRESENT: 

             2    Mr. Greg Duggan, City of Dalhart

             3    Mr. Gene Riser, Texas Deer Association

             4    Mr. Ellis Gilleland, "Texas Animals"

             5    Mr. Karl Kinsel, Texas Deer Association

             6    Mr. Kirby Brown, Texas Wildlife Association

             7    Mr. Jerry Johnston, Texas Deer Association

             8    Mr. Wesley Blevins, Calhoun County Shrimpers

             9    Mr. James Davenport, Calhoun County Shrimpers

            10    Mr. Skip James, (Petitioners Representative)

            11    Mr. Albert Fumuso, (Sportsman)

            12    Mr. Walt Glasscock, Texas Sportsmen Association

            13    Mr. Roy Callais, (Sport Fisherman)

            14    Mr. Larry Whigham, TOMA

            15    Mr. Jerry Norris, (Petitioners Representative)

            16    Mr. Greg Schomburg, Washington County Wildlife 

            17          Society

            18    Mr. Richard Moore, (Self)

            19    Mr. Ronald Hornbeck, Hornbeck Seafood Company

            20    Mr. Walter W. Zimmerman, Texas Shrimp Association

            21    Ms. Muriel Tipps, Matagorda County Seafood 

            22          Representative

            23    Mr. George Wilkinson, C-dontal Pipeline Company

            24    

            25    





.
                                                                   3

             1                       APRIL 4, 2002

             2                     MORNING SESSION: 

             3                         *-*-*-*-*

             4                      PUBLIC HEARING

             5                         *-*-*-*-*

             6    

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Good morning, 

             8    everyone.  The meeting is called to order.  Before 

             9    proceeding with any business, I believe Mr. Cook 

            10    has a statement to make. 

            11                  MR. COOK:  Madame Chairman, 

            12    Commissioners, a public notice of this meeting 

            13    containing all items on the proposed agenda has 

            14    been filed in the office of Secretary of State, as 

            15    required by Chapter 551 of the Government Code, 

            16    referred to as the Open Meetings Law.  I would 

            17    like for this action to be noted in the official 

            18    record of this meeting.

            19                  To touch on some of our ground rules 

            20    today very quickly so that everyone will have a 

            21    chance to address the Commission in an orderly 

            22    fashion, the following ground rules will be 

            23    followed.  The Chairman is in charge of the 

            24    meeting, and by law it is her duty to preserve 

            25    order, direct the order of the hearing, and 





.
                                                                   4

             1    recognize persons to be heard.  I will be 

             2    assisting the Chairman today as sergeant-at-arms. 

             3                  We have sign-up cards for everyone 

             4    wishing to speak, and the Chairman will call names 

             5    from those cards one at a time.  Each person will 

             6    be allowed to speak from the podium one at a time.  

             7    When your name is called, please come to the 

             8    podium, state your name and who you represent, if 

             9    anyone other than yourself.  Then state your 

            10    position on the agenda item under consideration 

            11    and add supporting facts that will help the 

            12    Commission understand your concern. 

            13                  Please limit your remarks to the 

            14    specific agenda item under consideration.  Each 

            15    person who wants to address the Commission will 

            16    have three minutes to speak.  I will keep track of 

            17    the time and will notify you when your three 

            18    minutes is up with this handy little clock right 

            19    here.  When your time is up, please resume your 

            20    seat so that others may speak. 

            21                  Your time may be extended if a 

            22    commissioner has a question for you.  If the 

            23    Commissioners ask you a question or discuss 

            24    something among themselves, that time will not be 

            25    counted against your time.  Statements that are 





.
                                                                   5

             1    merely argumentative or critical of others will 

             2    not be tolerated.  There is a microphone at the 

             3    podium, so it is not necessary to raise your 

             4    voice.

             5                  I also ask that you show proper 

             6    respect for the Commissioners, as well as other 

             7    members of the audience.  Disruptive or offensive 

             8    behavior will be grounds for immediate ejection 

             9    from the meeting.  If you have written materials 

            10    to submit to the Commission, please give them to 

            11    Ms. Lori Estrada here on my right.  Ms. Estrada 

            12    will pass the written materials to the 

            13    commissioners.  Thank you.

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, 

            15       Mr. Cook.  

            16       AGENDA ITEM NO. 1:  APPROVAL OF AGENDA

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Next is the 

            18       approval of the minutes, January, February, and 

            19       March meetings, which have already been 

            20       distributed.  Is there a motion for approval? 

            21                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  So moved.

            22                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  So moved

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Motion by 

            24       Commissioner Fitzsimons, second by Commissioner 

            25       Ramos.  All in favor say aye. 





.
                                                                   6

             1                  ("Aye").

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All opposed.  

             3       Hearing none, motion carries.

             4                  (Motion passes.)

             5                  Next is the acceptance of gifts, 

             6       which has also been distributed.  Is there a 

             7       motion for approval?

             8       

             9                TPWD DONATIONS OF $500 OR MORE

            10          (Donors are listed in the following order:

            11           Donor; Description; Purpose of Donation)

            12       

            13       (1)  Coastal Bend Bays and Estuary Program; 200 
                          traps; 2002 Abandoned Crab Trap Removal 
            14            Program
                     (2)  HEB; CASH; 2002 Abandoned Crab Trap 
            15            Removal
                     (3)  Texas State Council, Quail Unlimited; 
            16            Herbicide; Matador WMA brush control 
                          project
            17       (4)  Wal-Mart; CASH; CCA/CPL
                     (5)  Friends of Garner SP; Construction of 
            18            multi-use recreation court; Garner SP
                     (6)  Octagon; Computer equipment; Cedar Hill SP
            19       (7)  Texas Bighorn Society; food; Texas Grand 
                          Slam Hunt
            20       (8)  Mr. Thomas Wilson; electronic equipment; 
                          Lake Whitney SP
            21       (9)  Coastal Conservation Association; radar 
                          unit; Law Enforcement Region X
            22       (10) Saltwater Fisheries Enhancement 
                          Association; bullet-proof vests; Law 
            23            Enforcement Region X
                     (11) Mrs. Lyndon B. Johnson (LBJ Company); 
            24            CASH; repair and renovation of existing 
                          trails
            25       (12) Bike Lane; bikes; bike race at park
                     (13) Titus County Freshwater Supply District 




.
                                                                   7

             1            #1; T-shirts; 11th Annual Kids Fishing Day
                     (14) DOW Chemical Company; CASH; The Great 
             2            Texas Birding Classic
                     (15) Aransas Pass Chamber of Commerce; CASH; 
             3            The Great Texas Birding Classic
                     (16) Houghton Mifflin Company; field guides; 
             4            The Great Texas Birding Classic
                     (17) Whataburger; coupons; The Great Texas 
             5            Birding Classic
                     (18) DOW Chemical Company; CASH; The Great 
             6            Texas Birding Classic
                     (19) Fermata, Inc.; CASH; The Great Texas 
             7            Birding Classic
                     (20) Bushnell Performance Optics; CASH and 
             8            Scopes; The Great Texas Birding Classic
                     (21) Simpson Optics; CASH; The Great Texas 
             9            Birding Classic
                     (22) Parks and Wildlife Foundation, Inc.; CASH; 
            10            The Great Texas Birding Classic
                     (23) Brownsville CVB; CASH; The Great Texas 
            11            Birding Classic
                     (24) Rockport Fulton Area COC; CASH; The Great 
            12            Texas Birding Classic
                                         TOTAL:     $94,046.49
            13                  

            14                  

            15                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Move 

            16       approval.

            17                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Motion by 

            19       Commissioner Montgomery.  Second by 

            20       Commissioner Ramos.  All in favor, please say 

            21       aye. 

            22                  ("Aye.")

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            24       Hearing none, motion carries.

            25                  (Motion passes.)





.
                                                                   8

             1                  Next are the retirement certificates 

             2       and service awards.  Mr. Cook, would you please 

             3       make the presentations. 

             4                  MR. COOK:  Madame Chairman, 

             5       Commissioners, we have an unusual group of 

             6       folks here today.  I ran into a couple of them 

             7       in the hall, and some of them have more years 

             8       of service in this business than I do.  So I 

             9       think it's a real treat for us to see many of 

            10       these people today, and I hope you'll join me 

            11       in welcoming them.

            12                  First, a retirement certificate for 

            13       Joe Kraai, conservation scientist for Inland 

            14       Fisheries in Canyon, Texas with 31 years of 

            15       service.  I was fortunate enough recently to 

            16       attend Joe Kraai's retirement party at 

            17       San Angelo, and I will tell you I wish you had 

            18       all been there.  It was very nice and very 

            19       enjoyable, and it was an honor for me to be 

            20       there.  Joe began his career in 1971 as a fish 

            21       and wildlife technician at the Sheldon Wildlife 

            22       Management Area.  In 1972, Joe was promoted to 

            23       biologist.  In 1973, he moved to Canyon as the 

            24       leader of the district fisheries management 

            25       team.  He served in that role for 24 years, 





.
                                                                   9

             1       until in 1977, when he became the Inland 

             2       Fisheries regional director in San Angelo. 

             3                  Joe is a respected professional 

             4       fisheries manager, both in Texas and in the 

             5       United States, and has numerous professional 

             6       and popular publications to his credit.  He's 

             7       played a major role in the division's 

             8       reputation as a national leader in innovative, 

             9       aggressive Fisheries Management.  His work in 

            10       the Panhandle with walleye and small mouth bass 

            11       have forever changed fishing in that area. 

            12                  However, his lasting contribution to 

            13       this agency, to each of us and to his 

            14       profession, is the impact he has had on the 

            15       development of Fisheries personnel.  He has 

            16       ensured that his work ethic, his philosophies, 

            17       his loyalties to his constituents and his 

            18       integrity was passed along to all of his staff 

            19       and many of his peers.  And this is a good 

            20       thing for Texas and a good thing for Texas 

            21       Parks & Wildlife.  With 31 years of service in 

            22       Inland Fisheries Division, Joe Kraai has really 

            23       made a difference.  Joe Kraai.

            24                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            25                  MR. COOK:  Thank you.  Next, 





.
                                                                  10

             1       Johnnie B. Freeman, in the State Parks 

             2       Division, an administrative tech II at Jasper, 

             3       Texas with 26 years of service is retiring.  

             4       Johnnie began her employment at Martin Dies, 

             5       Jr. State Park in June of 1974 as a seasonal 

             6       employee.  In 1977, she became a full-time 

             7       employee and has worked at that state park 

             8       throughout her entire career and done us a 

             9       great job.  Johnnie B. Freeman. 

            10                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            11                  MR. COOK:  Before I go through this 

            12       next one, is Bob Carroll here?  I think they 

            13       would have to drag him in on a stretcher if he 

            14       were, so I'm going to skip over this one.  

            15       We'll catch him next time.  I'm not going to 

            16       let him off the hook, I just want y'all to 

            17       know.  We're going to have some fun with him.

            18                  In the service awards group, again, 

            19       like I said, I ran into some of these guys.  I 

            20       ran into this first gentleman this morning and 

            21       we had a nice visit.  Mac Caudle in the Law 

            22       Enforcement Division, Captain Game Warden at 

            23       Fort Stockton, Texas.  I've known Mac forever, 

            24       since he was a little kid, as you would say.  

            25       Mac entered the 20th game warden academy on 





.
                                                                  11

             1       February the 1st, 1967; and upon completion was 

             2       assigned to Del Rio.  In 1971, he transferred 

             3       to Eldorado and served in Schleicher County 

             4       until 1975, when he moved to Midland.  After 

             5       serving there for over five years, he moved to 

             6       San Angelo.  In 1991, he was promoted to 

             7       lieutenant.  And in 1994, returned to Del Rio 

             8       as a district supervisor.  In 1999, he moved to 

             9       Fort Stockton as District III Supervisor and 

            10       has been there since.  Mac Caudle. 

            11                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            12                  MR. COOK:  Mac said this morning 

            13       that he had noticed -- he said this morning 

            14       that he had noticed that everybody else around 

            15       him was getting old but that he was still the 

            16       same.  I think he's right.

            17                  Another gentleman that I've known a 

            18       long time and many of us have known, Robert Wes 

            19       Clogston, Jr., Law Enforcement Division, Major 

            20       Game Warden in Houston, Texas, with 35 years of 

            21       service.  On February the 1st, 1967, Wes 

            22       Clogston entered the 20th Game Warden Academy 

            23       held at Texas A&M University.  Upon 

            24       successfully completing the course studies, Wes 

            25       was stationed at High Island, Texas for a 





.
                                                                  12

             1       period of just over four years.  When I see 

             2       that, I figure he got in some kind of trouble 

             3       while he was at the academy.  He then was 

             4       reassigned to Huntsville, Walker County, Texas 

             5       where in the year of 1978, Wes was honored with 

             6       a Shikar Safari Wildlife Officer of the Year 

             7       award.  In November of 1986, Wes was promoted 

             8       to the position of District Supervisor based in 

             9       Kingsville, Texas.  After approximately six 

            10       years, Wes then transferred to the District 

            11       Supervisor's position located in Tyler.  

            12       November 1, 1996, Wes was promoted to his 

            13       present position of Major Game Warden, Region 

            14       IV, based in the North Houston Regional Office.  

            15       Wes Clogston, 35 years of service, Law 

            16       Enforcement Division.          

            17                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            18                  MR. COOK:  I said that for all these 

            19       young cadets that we've got here today.  Keep 

            20       an eye on this guy.  Thank you, Wes.

            21                  I tell you, the 20th Game Warden 

            22       Class must have been quite a group.  I -- Terry 

            23       Joy, another graduate of the 20th Game Warden 

            24       Class in the Law Enforcement Division, Captain 

            25       Game Warden, Brownwood, Texas, 35 years of 





.
                                                                  13

             1       service.  Graduated from the academy in 

             2       February 1967, was assigned to Llano County.  

             3       He was a game warden in Llano County for 18 

             4       years, and that's where I first got to know 

             5       Terry; and what a fine gentleman he is. In  

             6       December 1985, he was assigned to District 1, 

             7       Region 1, as a district supervisor and moved to 

             8       San Angelo.  He was there until January of 1992 

             9       and transferred to District I, Region 7 as 

            10       District Supervisor of the Brownwood District, 

            11       where he remains today.  My friend, Terry Joy. 

            12                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            13                  MR. COOK:  Preston Miculka, Law 

            14       Enforcement Division, Captain Game Warden, 

            15       La Marque, Texas, 35 years of service.  Another 

            16       graduate of the 20th Game Warden Academy, 

            17       Preston was employed with the TPWD on February 

            18       the 1st, 1967 and stationed in Galveston.  In 

            19       1971, he transferred to Alvin in 

            20       Brazoria County.  In 1974, he was promoted to 

            21       District Supervisor of the Galveston District 

            22       and remains there today.  Preston Miculka, Law 

            23       Enforcement Division, 35 years of service.  

            24       Preston.         

            25                  (Photographs taken; applause.)





.
                                                                  14

             1                  MR. COOK:  Yeah, Stinebaugh was also 

             2       in that class.  You young cadets really pay 

             3       attention here.  This is important.

             4                  Richard E. Thomas, Law Enforcement 

             5       Division, Game Warden V, Corsicana, Texas.  35 

             6       years of service.  Richard Thomas began his 

             7       career with TPWD in February 1967 after 

             8       graduating from the 20th Game Warden Academy at 

             9       Texas A&M University.  His first duty 

            10       assignment was at George West in Live Oak, 

            11       County, Texas.  In June 1979, he promoted to 

            12       District Supervisor in Nueces County and 

            13       transferred to Uvalde, Texas.  Richard's final 

            14       transfer takes him to Navarro County at 

            15       Corsicana, Texas, where he remains today.  

            16       Richard E Thomas, Game Warden V, 35 years of 

            17       service.         

            18                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            19                  MR. COOK:  Well, here is another 

            20       one.  Carl D. Frentress, Wildlife Division, 

            21       Program Specialist, Athens, Texas, with 30 

            22       years of service.  Carl began his career with 

            23       TPWD in February 1972 as a wildlife technician 

            24       to assist our old friend, Bob West, on the 

            25       Lower Coast waterfowl project stationed in 





.
                                                                  15

             1       Corpus Christi.  In 1973, he was promoted to 

             2       wildlife biologist for the first team of our 

             3       nongame staff.  In 1975, he was assigned as 

             4       project leader for the statewide 

             5       habitat-mapping project.  In 1977, he 

             6       transferred to Athens as a wildlife biologist 

             7       for the middle counties of the Trinity-Brazos 

             8       wildlife regulatory district. 

             9                  A career goal and life dream to work 

            10       as a waterfowl biologist in his native East 

            11       Texas was realized in 1982, when Carl became 

            12       the regional waterfowl biologist for North 

            13       Central and Northeast Texas.  Carl still holds 

            14       this position today in Athens, Texas.

            15                  His major career accomplishments 

            16       include: providing technical consultation 

            17       regarding legislation leading to the wildlife 

            18       tax valuation in Texas; assisting with the 

            19       Tarrant Regional Water District construction 

            20       and operation of a water-treatment wetlands on 

            21       the Richland Creek Wildlife Management Area; 

            22       and contributing to the four-state partnership 

            23       in integrated bird conservation on the West 

            24       Gulf Coast Plain Initiative of the Lower 

            25       Mississippi Valley Joint Venture.  Carl 





.
                                                                  16

             1       Frentress, 30 years of service, Wildlife 

             2       Division, Athens, Texas.       

             3                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             4                  MR. COOK:  Michael H. Gaddis, in the 

             5       State Parks Division with 30 years of service, 

             6       Manager II, Denison, Texas.  Mike Gaddis began 

             7       his employment with TPWD as an intern in the 

             8       summers of 1970 and 1971.  His career 

             9       assignments include Park Ranger III at Lake 

            10       Livingston State Park, Park Manager at 

            11       Daingerfield State Park, Park Manager at Caddo 

            12       Lake State Park, and Park Manager in the 

            13       Eisenhower Complex today.  Mike Gaddis has done 

            14       us a great job in State Parks, 30 years of 

            15       service.         

            16                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            17                  MR. COOK:  Another 30-year employee, 

            18       Hayden Haucke in the Wildlife Division, Manager 

            19       II, Tennessee Colony, Texas.  Hayden began 

            20       employment with TPWD's Wildlife Division in 

            21       February 1972 as a wildlife technician in Paris 

            22       after obtaining a master's degree in wildlife 

            23       science at Texas A&M University.  Two years 

            24       later, he was promoted to wildlife biologist 

            25       and became a regulatory biologist for those 





.
                                                                  17

             1       northeast Texas Counties that were not under 

             2       regulatory law regulations at the time.

             3                  He transferred to the 11,000-acre 

             4       Gus Engeling Wildlife Management Area as a 

             5       wildlife biologist in 1983 and became the area 

             6       manager there in 1984.  He assumed 

             7       responsibility for the newly acquired 

             8       13,800-acre Richland Creek Wildlife Management 

             9       Area in 1987.  In 2001, he was named the 

            10       project manager of the Middle Trinity River 

            11       Ecosystems Project, which include the Gus 

            12       Engeling Wildlife Management Area, Richland 

            13       Creek Wildlife Management Area, Big Lake 

            14       Bottom, Cedar Creek Islands, and Keechi Creek 

            15       Wildlife Management Area.  And this is his 

            16       current position. 

            17                  Highlights of his career included 

            18       liberalizing all of our public use activities 

            19       on our wildlife management areas; establishing 

            20       a livestock grazing system on these areas; 

            21       implementing interpretive walking and driving 

            22       nature tours; expanding prescribed burning on 

            23       our wildlife management areas and in 

            24       association with our private lands program; 

            25       expanding research activities; establishing 200 





.
                                                                  18

             1       acres of shallow water-treatment wetlands on 

             2       Richland Creek Wildlife Management Area; and 

             3       establishing a productive partnership with TDCJ 

             4       to use inmate labor on our wildlife management 

             5       areas, including on-site camps for 400 inmates 

             6       in 1994 and 200 inmates in 1995.  Hayden 

             7       Haucke, Wildlife Division, 30 years of service. 

             8                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             9                  MR. COOK:  Betty Simms in the Law 

            10       Enforcement Division is getting her 30 years 

            11       service award this -- today.  She's an 

            12       Administrative Technician III at Beaumont, 

            13       Texas.  Betty began working for the department 

            14       in July of 1971 at the Lufkin Law Enforcement 

            15       Office and retired there in September 1998.  

            16       She moved back to -- she moved to Beaumont and 

            17       went back to work for the Beaumont Law 

            18       Enforcement District Office in March of 1999, 

            19       where she serves us today.  Betty Sims, 30 

            20       years of service, Law Enforcement Division.

            21                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            22                  MR. COOK:  I had to look at this one 

            23       twice.  I didn't know for sure who Robert L.  

            24       Singleton, Jr., was, but it turns out it's Bob 

            25       Singleton, Infrastructure Division, Manager IV, 





.
                                                                  19

             1       here in Austin, Texas with 30 years of service.  

             2       And we all know Bob Singleton. 

             3                  Bob began his career with TPWD in 

             4       March of 1972, when the Master Planning Program 

             5       was under the State Parks Division.  As a 

             6       licensed architect, he has served in various 

             7       positions over the years, such as park planner, 

             8       project manager, and acting head of the Master 

             9       Planning Program in the Infrastructure 

            10       Division. 

            11                  Bob has been responsible for 

            12       preparing environmentally sensitive park 

            13       development plans for numerous State Parks 

            14       during his 30-year tenure, including Mustang 

            15       Island, Guadalupe River, Brazos Bend, Caprock 

            16       Canyons, Lake Ray Roberts, Mustang Island, 

            17       Choke Canyon, Franklin Mountains, and Big Bend 

            18       Ranch and many more. 

            19                  Bob is currently our TxDOT program 

            20       coordinator in the Infrastructure Division.  

            21       The TxDOT program is a $5-million a year 

            22       program to develop and maintain our roads and 

            23       parking areas throughout the sites within Texas 

            24       Parks & Wildlife Department.  Bob Singleton, 

            25       Infrastructure Division, with 30 years of 





.
                                                                  20

             1       service.         

             2                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             3                  MR. COOK:  All right.  Danny 

             4       Swepston in the Wildlife Division, Manager II 

             5       in Canyon, Texas with 30 years of service.  

             6       Danny began his career in 1972 in Nacogdoches 

             7       as a Wildlife Technician II working on 

             8       endangered species and habitat acquisition.  

             9       After about a year and a half, he transferred 

            10       to Austin as a Biologist I when the nongame 

            11       program was expanded.  He was promoted to a 

            12       Biologist II while in Austin; and after three 

            13       years, he transferred to Alpine where he was 

            14       responsible for nongame activities in the 

            15       Trans-Pecos area of Texas.  After three years, 

            16       he was reassigned to the Trans-Pecos Regulatory 

            17       District where he worked on the district's 

            18       various projects, wildlife management areas, 

            19       and was also in charge of the Octillo Wildlife 

            20       Management Area.  In 1990, he was selected for 

            21       the district leader position, which he holds 

            22       today in the Texas Panhandle and also serves as 

            23       our coordinator for the Texas State Bison Herd.  

            24       Danny Swepston, 30 years of service in the 

            25       Wildlife Division.             





.
                                                                  21

             1                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             2                  MR. COOK:  Robert M. Comstock in the 

             3       State Park Division with 25 years of service, 

             4       Program Administrator III, Houston, Texas.  

             5       Rob Comstock started his career with TPWD as a 

             6       seasonal part-time employee at Galveston Island 

             7       State Park.  During his seven years there, he 

             8       worked his way through the park ranger ranks, 

             9       including serving as a park manager of Bryan  

            10       Beach.  In 1984, he became the first Parks 

            11       Superintendent of Sheldon Lake State Park and 

            12       Wildlife Management Area, a position he has 

            13       held since. 

            14                  Rob says he wouldn't trade for his 

            15       years at Sheldon for any other position in the 

            16       department, and I don't much blame him.  Over 

            17       the past 18 years, it has allowed him to work 

            18       with employees from Law Enforcement, Resource 

            19       Protection, Wildlife, inland and Coastal 

            20       Fisheries divisions, and last but not least, 

            21       the Communications division.  All have played a 

            22       role in helping make the Sheldon State Park 

            23       Wildlife Management Area a special place for 

            24       all Texans. 

            25                  He looks forward to implementation 





.
                                                                  22

             1       of the newly completed Master Plan for the 

             2       park.  Rob Comstock, 25 years of service, 

             3       Houston, Texas.          

             4                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             5                  MR. COOK:  Robert E. Carlson in the 

             6       Law Enforcement Division with 20 years of 

             7       service, Captain Game Warden in Rusk, Texas.  

             8       Robert graduated from the Game Warden Academy 

             9       in May of 1982.  His duty assignments include 

            10       Rains County, Gregg County, the Game Warden 

            11       Training Academy in Austin.  He is currently 

            12       the Captain Game Warden in Rusk, Texas.  

            13       Robert E. Carlson, 20 years of service, Law 

            14       Enforcement Division.          

            15                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            16                  MR. COOK:  Josephine A. Cherry, 

            17       Accountant IV in the Administrative Resource 

            18       Division, Austin, Texas, with 20 years of 

            19       service.  Josephine has been employed with TPWD 

            20       since February of 1982.  She currently serves 

            21       as one of the boat registration supervisors, 

            22       where she is the State's Technical Advisor for 

            23       processing vessel and outboard motor documents.  

            24       Josephine also serves as custodian of records 

            25       for boat registration.  Her TPWD services 





.
                                                                  23

             1       include trainer and leader of the Natural 

             2       Quality Team, participant in several strategic 

             3       planning and public hearings, a member and 

             4       facilitator for HR Training Team, CFO 

             5       Certificate Team; CFO Problem Solving Team, 

             6       participant of TPWD Volunteer Outreach Weekend 

             7       Program and Big Sister Lunch Hour Volunteer for 

             8       TPWD and Palm Elementary.  Josephine also 

             9       serves, in her spare time, as Girl Scout Leader 

            10       for Brownie Troop Number 1149 in South Austin.  

            11       Josephine Cherry, Administrative Resources, 20 

            12       years of service.              

            13                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            14                  MR. COOK:  Fred Churchill, Game 

            15       Warden, Law Enforcement Division in Belton, 

            16       Texas has 20 years of service.  Fred graduated 

            17       from the Texas Game Warden Training Academy in 

            18       May of 1982.  His first duty station was 

            19       Groveton in Trinity County.  In 1984, he 

            20       transferred to Marlin in Falls County.  He 

            21       remained in Falls County until February 1987, 

            22       when he referred to Georgetown in 

            23       Williamson County.  In May of 1996, he 

            24       transferred to Belton in Bell County, where he 

            25       remains today.  And in March 2002, he was 





.
                                                                  24

             1       promoted to Sergeant Investigator with the 

             2       newly created Marine Theft Unit.  Fred E. 

             3       Churchill, Law Enforcement Division, with 20 

             4       years of service.              

             5                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             6                  MR. COOK:  Gary Wayne Dugan, Law 

             7       Enforcement Division, Lieutenant Game Warden, 

             8       Austin, Texas, with 20 years of service.  Gary 

             9       graduated from the 36th Game Warden Training 

            10       Academy in May of 1982.  He was stationed in 

            11       Marion County.  In March of 1987, he 

            12       transferred to Rains County.  And in June 2001, 

            13       he was promoted to Lieutenant at the Game 

            14       Warden Training Academy.  He is a recipient of 

            15       the 1999 Marine Safety Officer of the Year 

            16       Award.  Gary Wayne Dugan, Law Enforcement 

            17       Division, 20 years of service.  

            18                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            19                  MR. COOK:  Michael E. Keeney, in the 

            20       Law Enforcement Division at Orange, Game 

            21       Warden V, has 20 years of service.  Mike 

            22       entered the Game Warden Academy in January of 

            23       1982.  His first duty assignment was in 

            24       Galveston County.  After permission was granted 

            25       for transfer to Orange, he remains there today.  





.
                                                                  25

             1       Mike has survived four supervisors and one 

             2       alligator bite.  I don't know if I want to know 

             3       that story or not.  He has received recognition 

             4       from Mothers Against Drunk Drivers for his work 

             5       in BWI enforcement.  Everyone in the area knows 

             6       him as "Big Mike."  Mike Keeney, Law 

             7       Enforcement Division, 20 years of service.

             8                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             9                  MR. COOK:  Stinebaugh said to get 

            10       out of the academy, all the cadets gotta go 

            11       through him.  I'm afraid we may have lost them 

            12       there, Jim.

            13                  Leroy Polnick in the Law Enforcement 

            14       Division with 20 years of service.  Leroy is a 

            15       Game Warden V in Brownwood, Texas.  Leroy 

            16       graduated from the 36th Game Warden Academy in 

            17       May of 1982.  His first duty station was in 

            18       Silsbee in Hardin, County.  In June of 1985, he 

            19       transferred to Brownwood, Texas and has been in 

            20       Brown County since that time. 

            21                  Leroy's accomplishments include 

            22       recognition for water-related life saving 

            23       efforts on numerous occasions during his career 

            24       in Hardin, Brown, and Coleman Counties, both on 

            25       the local and national level.  In 1990, he was 





.
                                                                  26

             1       recognized by the Brown County Police Officers 

             2       Association for his outstanding leadership and 

             3       service.  Leroy has also been recognized by the 

             4       Texas Adjutant General's Office for support 

             5       given to the Military Forces of Texas.  Leroy 

             6       Polnick, Law Enforcement Division, Brownwood, 

             7       Texas with 20 years of service. 

             8                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             9                  MR. COOK:  I believe that concludes 

            10       our service awards and retirements.  Thank you.

            11            AGENDA ITEM NO. 1:  APPROVAL OF AGENDA

            12                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  The first order of 

            13       the business is the approval of the agenda 

            14       which we have before us.  Is there a motion for 

            15       approval? 

            16                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Move.

            17                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second.

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Have a motion by 

            19       Commissioner Montgomery, a second by 

            20       Commissioner Watson.  All in favor please say 

            21       aye? 

            22                  ("Aye.")

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            24       Hearing none, motion carries. 

            25                  (Motion passes.)





.
                                                                  27

             1       AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: ACTION - LOCAL PARK FUNDING.

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  This brings us to 

             3       Agenda Item Number 2.  It's an action item, 

             4       Urban Park and Recreation Recovery Program.  

             5       Mr. Hogsett, would you please make your 

             6       presentation.

             7                  MR. HOGSETT:  Madame Chairman, 

             8       members of the Commission, I'm Tim Hoggset from 

             9       the Recreation Grants branch of the State Parks 

            10       Division.  The Urban Parks and Recreation 

            11       Recovery Program is a program -- grant program 

            12       of the National Parks Service.  And it provides 

            13       assistance on a matching basis to local 

            14       governments for the rehabilitation of primarily 

            15       inner city recreation facilities. 

            16                  All the funding decisions are made 

            17       by the federal government, and the federal 

            18       share can range anywhere from 70 to 85 percent 

            19       match, depending on whether the states make a 

            20       contribution.  A state contribution towards the 

            21       match makes our projects in Texas that would be 

            22       submitted more competitive.

            23                  There is approximately $29 million 

            24       available nationally for the program for a -- 

            25       under a national competition.  And we are 





.
                                                                  28

             1       eligible for approximately 15 percent or 4.3 

             2       million of that in Texas communities.  In the 

             3       past, Parks & Wildlife has participated at a 

             4       10-percent match level, leaving a 5-percent 

             5       match requirement for the local governments, 

             6       the idea being that there needs -- should be 

             7       some participation at the local level. 

             8                  Any of the funds that we would set 

             9       aside for potential Texas-approved projects 

            10       that are not successful or not used would be 

            11       returned to the Texas Recreation and Parks 

            12       account.

            13                  Therefore, the staff is making the 

            14       following recommendation, that funding in the 

            15       amount of $433,500 is reserved to be used at 

            16       the discretion of the executive director to 

            17       match 10 percent of the costs of any UPARR 

            18       projects approved by the National Park Service 

            19       for Texas local governments.  I'd be glad to 

            20       answer your questions. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Is there any 

            22       discussion by the Commissioners?  There is no 

            23       one, I believe, signed up to speak on this.  

            24       Does the staff have any comments?  Are there 

            25       any comments at all from the Commission? 





.
                                                                  29

             1                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Move approval of 

             2       the recommendation. 

             3                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Second.

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion by 

             5       Commissioner Angelo, a second by Commissioner 

             6       Montgomery.  All in favor, please say aye. 

             7                  ("Aye.")

             8                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

             9       Hearing none, motion carries.

            10                  (Motion passes.)

            11       "Funding in the amount of up to $433,500 is 

            12       reserved to be used, at the direction of the 

            13       Executive Director, to match 10% of the cost 

            14       for UPARR projects approved by the National 

            15       Park Service for Texas local governments."

            16                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Tim.

            17          AGENDA ITEM NO. 3:  ACTION - TPWD FACILITY 

            18                          TRANSFERS.

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  The next item is 

            20       Agenda Item No. 3.  It's an action item.  The 

            21       Lake Rita State Park transfer.  Mr. Dabney, 

            22       will you make your presentation.  Well, Mr. 

            23       Dabney is not here. 

            24                  MR. BUNN:  Madame Chairman and 

            25       Commissioners, I'm Bruce Bunn.  I'm the 





.
                                                                  30

             1       regional director headquartered in Lubbock.  

             2       The item before you concerns an approval of 

             3       facility transfer of Lake Rita Blanca State 

             4       Park.  Lake Rita Blanca State Park is the 

             5       northernmost park in our system.  It's located 

             6       in Dalhart, and it consists of approximately 

             7       1666 -- 68 acres.  It was acquired in 1990 

             8       through 101-year lease with Dallam and Hartley 

             9       Counties.  It opened to the public in 1994 as a 

            10       wildlife management area and became a state 

            11       park in 1995.  It's currently a day-use park.  

            12       We don't have any overnight facilities.  And we 

            13       also don't charge a fee for this park.  The 

            14       authority for this transfer comes from the 

            15       76th Legislature.  House Bill 2108 authorized 

            16       grants for interim operation and maintenance of 

            17       Texas Parks & Wildlife sites being transferred 

            18       to a political subdivision such as the City of 

            19       Dalhart.  A total of $2 million is available 

            20       each year for the fiscal year 2002/2003 

            21       biennium.  These grants must be based upon a 

            22       proposal from the political subdivision.  The 

            23       City of Dalhart has submitted just such a 

            24       proposal for Lake Rita Blanca that the staff 

            25       finds acceptable. 





.
                                                                  31

             1                  And today, we do have the city 

             2       manager of Dalhart, Greg Duggan, with us.  I 

             3       believe he'll speak.  The grant the City of 

             4       Dalhart has requested is for $397,286.  This 

             5       will be used for various park repairs and 

             6       enhancements.  It will include three lookouts 

             7       for birding, hiking and trail improvements.  

             8       They're going to build two restrooms and a 

             9       large group pavilion and a playground, as well. 

            10                  Staff's recommendation is the 

            11       executive director is authorized to execute the 

            12       necessary agreements to effect the transfer of 

            13       Lake Rita Blanca State Park for operations to 

            14       the City of Dalhart as a city park site.  All 

            15       state park references will be removed.  The 

            16       executive director is authorized to execute a 

            17       grant agreement in the amount of $397,286, 

            18       using fund from the Texas Recreation and Parks 

            19       account to effect the orderly transfer of this 

            20       site.  Questions? 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Is there any 

            22       discussion from the Commission? 

            23                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I'm happy 

            24       to make a motion. 

            25                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  No, we've got 





.
                                                                  32

             1       someone signed up to speak today.  We have one 

             2       speaker, Greg Duggan from Dalhart. 

             3                  MR. DUGGAN:  Madame Chairman and 

             4       Commissioners, I just wanted to thank you on 

             5       behalf of the Dalhart City Council and Mayor 

             6       for this opportunity.  I know it's going to be 

             7       in the best interest of our citizens and the 

             8       state as a whole.  Just thanks very much. 

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  Are 

            10       there any further comments from the Commission?  

            11       Is there a motion on this item? 

            12                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I move we 

            13       accept the recommendation and move approval. 

            14                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Motion by 

            16       Commissioner Montgomery, second by Commissioner 

            17       Ramos.  All in favor, please say aye. 

            18                  ("Aye.")

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            20       Motion carries. 

            21                  (Motion passes.)

            22       "The Executive Director is authorized to 

            23       execute the necessary agreements to effect the 

            24       transfer of Lake Rita Blanca State Park for 

            25       operations to the City of Dalhart as a city 





.
                                                                  33

             1       park site.  All 'state park' references to the 

             2       site shall be removed.  The Executive Director 

             3       is authorized to execute a grant agreement in 

             4       the amount of $397,286 using funds from the 

             5       Texas Recreation and Parks Account to effect 

             6       the orderly transfer of this site."

             7                AGENDA NO. 4: ACTION - CERVID 

             8            DISEASE-SCIENTIFIC BREEDER REGULATIONS

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda No. 4 is an 

            10       action item dealing with cervid disease issues.  

            11       Mr. Cooke, would you please make your 

            12       presentation. 

            13                  DR. COOKE:  Madame Chairman, and 

            14       members, my name is Jerry Cooke, Game Branch 

            15       Chief of the Wildlife Division.  I'll be 

            16       presenting to you this issue related to the 

            17       cervid diseases in less detail than we covered 

            18       yesterday, but I'll be happy to do the 

            19       questions as we get through them.

            20                  Since the emergency action 

            21       March 11th, I told you yesterday that six 

            22       states had actually closed their borders to 

            23       importation.  I was incorrect at that time.  

            24       That was actually seven states because I had 

            25       missed Arkansas in my listing.  Also, the Texas 





.
                                                                  34

             1       Animal Health Commission has suspended 

             2       importation -- importation permits for elk, 

             3       which effectively closes importation of those, 

             4       as well.  And we've had many, many meetings 

             5       with the Texas Animal Health Commission to work 

             6       out protocols and procedures for dealing with 

             7       the illegal animals as they come to the state, 

             8       if they come to the state. 

             9                  In response to that, Operation Game 

            10       Thief Committee has also established the 

            11       largest reward I think they've ever assessed 

            12       for information leading to the conviction of 

            13       anyone who would illegally bring white tail or 

            14       mule deer into this state.

            15                  Also, there are a couple of pending 

            16       actions of the Texas Animal Health Commission, 

            17       as I understand them, from their last meeting.  

            18       One would be to effectively provide the 

            19       executive director of the authority to embargo 

            20       a state that she feels -- finds at risk of 

            21       infecting Texas.  Also, there's -- they're 

            22       establishing -- or I believe they will be 

            23       establishing entry requirements for elk, white 

            24       tail deer, or mule deer and black tail deer in 

            25       Texas.





.
                                                                  35

             1                  This action item includes an 

             2       adoption of an importation suspension in Texas 

             3       for white tail deer and mule deer, which would 

             4       supersede and replace your emergency action of 

             5       March 11th, if you so choose.  Also, in 

             6       January, we discussed the definition of a 

             7       healthy condition, which is described in the 

             8       statute but not defined in statute.  And we 

             9       proposed at that time that our rules reflect a 

            10       definition that is simply says that a deer from 

            11       a facility having a chronic wasting disease 

            12       monitoring program and a tuberculosis herd 

            13       accreditation status or has an approved herd 

            14       health management plan from the Texas Animal 

            15       Health Commission would, in fact, be in healthy 

            16       condition by definition.

            17                  We also propose to link that 

            18       definition to a regulation which clarified the 

            19       statute in saying that unless an animal were in 

            20       a healthy condition based on this definition, 

            21       they could not be sold, offered for sale, 

            22       transported anywhere except to a veterinarian 

            23       for health reasons, temporarily transferred, or 

            24       released into the wild.

            25                  In several meetings with the Texas 





.
                                                                  36

             1       Deer Association, they proposed to us a 

             2       possible action which they have been following 

             3       up on.  And I believe someone from the Texas 

             4       Deer Association may speak today on this issue.  

             5       They basically offered to take the lead, both 

             6       in effort and finances, to bring the BTB blood 

             7       tests back into Texas, which would be good for 

             8       everyone if that happened; and also to put 

             9       significant pressure onto their membership to 

            10       enter a voluntary testing and monitoring 

            11       program with the Animal Health Commission if we 

            12       would postpone actually adopting the definition 

            13       that I just described for you.  And our staff 

            14       recommendation is that we, in fact, do that; 

            15       that we adopt the importation suspension but 

            16       postpone taking any action on the testing and 

            17       monitoring program at this time, to allow the 

            18       Texas Deer Association an opportunity to move 

            19       forward on their offer.

            20                  The recommended motion would be the 

            21       Texas Parks & Wildlife Commission adopts 31 

            22       TAC -- and this would not be accurate.  We 

            23       would only be adopting 65.609 and 65.610 

            24       concerning cervid diseases in the Scientific 

            25       Breeder Proclamation with changes to the 





.
                                                                  37

             1       proposed text as published in the Texas 

             2       Register, if you choose to take that action.  

             3       Otherwise, we would be adopting all of the 

             4       sections proposed.  Do we have any questions? 

             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any 

             6       questions from the Commission? 

             7                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Well, I think 

             8       I've got a couple of questions but I'd like to 

             9       wait and hear from those registered to speak.

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I do.  I have quite 

            11       a few people registered to speak.  Why don't --

            12                  DR. COOKE:  Madame Chairman, I also 

            13       failed to recognize that Doctor Linda Logan, 

            14       executive director of the Animal Health 

            15       Commission, is present at the meeting.  I don't 

            16       know if she intends to speak or not.  But I 

            17       wanted you to know that she was here providing 

            18       moral support that we provide them when they 

            19       have their meetings, as well. 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I saw that 

            21       Doctor Logan was here.  Would you please stand, 

            22       Doctor Logan?  Thank you. 

            23                  (Applause.)

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  We will now hear 

            25       from those who signed up to speak.  I'd like to 





.
                                                                  38

             1       remind you that you have three minutes.  I will 

             2       announce the two people that are in line to 

             3       speak so that the second person can get ready 

             4       and so forth. 

             5                  The first person is Gene Riser of 

             6       the Texas Deer Association.  Following him, 

             7       Ellis Gilleland. 

             8                  MR. RISER:  Madame Chairman and 

             9       esteemed Commissioners, I've enjoyed the 

            10       meeting very much this morning.  It's good 

            11       could to be with you.  I especially enjoyed all 

            12       those introductions and recognitions of all 

            13       those valuable and dedicated employees.  It was 

            14       impressive.  It was worth the time.  Thank you 

            15       very much. 

            16                  I really came for something else, 

            17       but that was good to see as I sat here.  And 

            18       Karl saved us a real nice place there on the 

            19       second row.  I appreciate that. 

            20                  My comments had to do with this 

            21       cervid disease, but I will defer to Karl, who I 

            22       had hoped would talk ahead and explain what our 

            23       position will be and what we offer to do with 

            24       our members to help move this along and get 

            25       control of these diseases as well as we can.  





.
                                                                  39

             1       Thank you very much. 

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  Ellis 

             3       Gilleland and then Karl Kinsel. 

             4                  MR. GILLELAND:  I'll give you a 

             5       second handout at the end of the -- my name is 

             6       Ellis Gilleland.  I'm a private citizen.  I'm 

             7       representing Texas Animals, which is an animal 

             8       rights organization on the Internet.

             9                  There are three items on the table, 

            10       ladies and gentlemen, not one.  The first item 

            11       is -- we can dispense with real fast.  I've 

            12       given you copies of all three.  The first one 

            13       is, you've answered yourself the motion that 

            14       Jerry put up here.  The motion is -- or the 

            15       recommendation of the staff was postponed 

            16       adoption of mandatory testing, monitoring 

            17       proposal to determine if the Texas Deer 

            18       Association can be successful.  That has never 

            19       been published in the Texas Register; 

            20       therefore, it has no validity.  And you, 

            21       yourself, said it's fraudulent by -- in your 

            22       statement here of the notice to the Secretary 

            23       of State, you say, "However, the Department 

            24       cannot foresee that importation would reach 

            25       unprecedented rates as persons sought to 





.
                                                                  40

             1       acquire cervid from out-of-state sources in 

             2       anticipation of the pending regulatory 

             3       suspension."  I.e., in January, you imported in 

             4       the State 95; in February, these yahoos 

             5       imported 253.  They have no good faith.  Cut 

             6       them off at the pass, ladies and gentlemen.

             7                  The second item you have that's 

             8       published on the 1st of March was the proposal, 

             9       the foundation motion, which is on the screen.  

            10       It has at the end of it -- the beginning of it 

            11       has a definition, which emergency rule did not 

            12       have.  Also, this most proposed rule has INJ at 

            13       the end, which the emergency rule didn't have.  

            14       And you'll notice that the emergency rule 

            15       published on the 29th, whereas your regular 

            16       motion was published on the 1st.  So I hardly 

            17       concur with the first -- the one published on 

            18       the 1st.  I think it shows good faith on the 

            19       part of your staff and a lot of good staff work 

            20       and it's tight.  It's not tight as far as the 

            21       scientific breeder because it's handled 

            22       passively.  It's tight as far as the individual 

            23       got, buying and selling deer and moving them 

            24       down the road in a livestock trailer.  There's 

            25       nothing passive.  It's no good.  You lawyers 





.
                                                                  41

             1       know that.  Possession of an animal.  The guy 

             2       sees the game warden coming up the road, so he 

             3       opens the gate.  He has no more possession, the 

             4       deer are gone.  You've got to put it in there 

             5       thou shalt not, please.  So you get him thou 

             6       shalt not import.  And then you get him on the 

             7       passive side with possession.  I dropped a 

             8       crack pipe between my feet.  I'm innocent 

             9       because that cop can't handcuff me because the 

            10       crack pipe is on the ground.  I've got no 

            11       possession.  The second thing I want to give 

            12       you is the handout.

            13                  MR. COOK:  Mr. Gilleland, your time 

            14       is up, sir.

            15                  MR. GILLELAND:  Okay.  My time is 

            16       up, I'm going to give you the handout anyway.  

            17       Thank you very much for listening.

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Karl Kinsel and 

            19       then Kirby Brown. 

            20                  MR. KINSEL:  Madame Chairman, 

            21       Commission members and Executive Director Cook, 

            22       I am Karl Kinsel, executive director of the 

            23       Texas Deer Association.  I am speaking today on 

            24       Item No. 4, the cervid disease issue.  Over the 

            25       past few months, we've enjoyed working with you 





.
                                                                  42

             1       on CWD problems.  It's our extreme desire to 

             2       continue working very diligently with you and 

             3       your staff and the Texas Animal Health 

             4       Commission regarding these important disease 

             5       issues.  We truly are here and want to help.  

             6       It is our industry and we're very proud of it 

             7       in working with you and TAHC is mandatory for 

             8       us.  I assure you that we take these issues 

             9       very seriously.  And we request development of 

            10       a comprehensive plan for monitoring and dealing 

            11       with CWD and other wildlife issues.  The TDA 

            12       will commit to a sound CWD monitoring program 

            13       and plan with well-defined goals in regards to 

            14       the extent of participation by our members, 

            15       time lines, and evaluation criteria. 

            16                  We propose a goal of 20 percent of 

            17       our deer breeders apportionately distributed 

            18       geographically in all regions of our 

            19       association.  We propose a presentation for 

            20       this commitment to coincide with your May 

            21       commission meeting.  We propose a monitoring 

            22       period of two years, followed by an evaluation 

            23       of the results according to the criteria 

            24       contained in the plan developed cooperatively 

            25       between TDA and TPWD. 





.
                                                                  43

             1                  An important component of this plan 

             2       would be contingencies and actions for dealing 

             3       with CWD in the event that CWD is found within 

             4       our borders.  If it is endemic in our wildlife 

             5       or within our privately-owned white-tailed 

             6       deer, nevertheless, we must have a plan that 

             7       deals with the contingencies of these actions.  

             8       Included in this plan should also be clear 

             9       provisions for the indemnification of 

            10       scientific breeder deer against loss, through a 

            11       standard class action process.

            12                  Since increasing wild deer 

            13       populations throughout the U.S. do constitute a 

            14       potential hazard to the future of hunting, we 

            15       further urge and propose that the TPWD 

            16       Commission take appropriate actions to evaluate 

            17       reinstating the Wildlife Disease Unit. 

            18                  I, unfortunately, am too young to 

            19       remember a lot of it, but I hear tremendously 

            20       good compliments about it.  If there is any 

            21       possibility of that, we really stress to see 

            22       the reinstatement of the Wildlife Disease Unit 

            23       within the department for the purpose of 

            24       monitoring on a statewide basis prevalence of 

            25       various disease -- prevalent various wildlife 





.
                                                                  44

             1       vector diseases.

             2                  MR. COOK:  Mr. Kinsel --

             3                  MR. KINSEL:  For your use --

             4                  MR. COOK:   Your time is up, sir.

             5                  MR. KINSEL:  I appreciate your 

             6       concerns.

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Karl.  I 

             8       appreciate you being here.  And I would like to 

             9       comment that it has been, indeed a pleasure 

            10       working with you-all.  We're going to have some 

            11       questions, I feel sure, so if you'll bear with 

            12       us.  Commissioner Angelo has a question for 

            13       you. 

            14                  MR. KINSEL:  Yes, sir.

            15                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  One of the -- a 

            16       basic question, I guess, would be, what your 

            17       group sees as the problems with the Department 

            18       defining what a healthy animal is and what the 

            19       objection would be to a mandatory position 

            20       like -- such as that. 

            21                  MR. KINSEL:  Very good.  I'll do my 

            22       best to answer that.  The problems we see with 

            23       the definition of healthy herd is there isn't a 

            24       specific definition of healthy herd.  We would 

            25       like to work on that, and that will be within 





.
                                                                  45

             1       the plan.  So what we're doing is actually what 

             2       you're asking.  We're just asking for the time 

             3       in which to complete that.

             4                  As far as the -- not having the 

             5       healthy herd plan and going to the levels of 

             6       testing for CWD and TB, we do not see that 

             7       there is a warrant for such at this time.  We 

             8       have not found that within scientific breeder 

             9       deer.  We do hold them in an esteemed situation 

            10       in which we take more care, place more 

            11       integrity and more inspection of those animals 

            12       than anyone, including the State. 

            13                  So we are just asking that that 

            14       small entity of scientific breeder deer not be 

            15       overregulated.  And given the time that we can 

            16       provide a means and a method that is not 

            17       detrimental to us, yet is surveillance 

            18       adequate. 

            19                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  And you believe 

            20       that the -- a 20-percent commitment -- explain 

            21       exactly what you mean by that. 

            22                  MR. KINSEL:  We are -- that's a 

            23       number that's very arbitrary.  But I'll tell 

            24       you a way we come up with it, in discussions 

            25       with Ken Waldrup and others -- Doctor Ken 





.
                                                                  46

             1       Waldrup and others, 9 percent seemed to be a 

             2       sufficient number.  We more than doubled it, 

             3       just to put it on this piece of paper. 

             4                  I truly believe we will see almost 

             5       unanimous cooperation from the members that are 

             6       scientific breeders.  Along with that, may I 

             7       add that we are looking very wholeheartedly 

             8       into the sentinel animal program, both 

             9       monetarily and cooperatively with Doctor Jensen 

            10       at A&M.

            11                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Could you 

            12       explain exactly, though, what the 20 percent -- 

            13       if 20 percent of the members commit to do 

            14       exactly what?  What will they be committing to 

            15       do? 

            16                  MR. KINSEL:  To follow that plan, 

            17       the plan that we will develop prior to the next 

            18       commission meeting and as soon as possible.  It 

            19       is utmost of importance for us to have it 

            20       yesterday, if not tomorrow.  So we will do 

            21       the -- we will work as fast as you-all can to 

            22       develop that plan, to have that plan, and 

            23       hopefully before the commission meeting, not 

            24       only will the plan be in place, but we will 

            25       also have some start of some results.





.
                                                                  47

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

             2       Montgomery has a question.

             3                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Well, I 

             4       was trying to understand this 20-percent issue.  

             5       Are you -- I'm going to ask the dumb obvious 

             6       question.  But are you suggesting in lieu of 

             7       what Jerry was discussing, which is a 

             8       definition of healthy deer in which the Animal 

             9       Health Commission has an approved plan, which I 

            10       assume would be a hundred percent compliance in 

            11       order to define a healthy deer, that you're 

            12       only proposing 20 percent of the members comply 

            13       with some other definition of what a healthy 

            14       animal is? 

            15                  MR. KINSEL:  No, sir.  We're looking 

            16       at the 20 percent being in compliance, 

            17       including the sentinel animal program that we 

            18       have not brought up but we believe is very 

            19       advantageous to --

            20                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Could you 

            21       explain that to me?  Because I don't know what 

            22       that is. 

            23                  MR. KINSEL:  Sentinel animal program 

            24       is taking a animal that is clinically free of 

            25       any disease, let's call it a goat of under six 





.
                                                                  48

             1       months of age, born on concrete, put into the 

             2       pens, it will -- or should contact any variety 

             3       of diseases, including any internal parasites, 

             4       et cetera.  Postmortem testing that animal or 

             5       an animal of like kind within the pens at least 

             6       annually to determine two things: if there is 

             7       any prevalence of disease; and secondarily, any 

             8       advantageous things that are going to be to the 

             9       breeder for their own animals' health.  It is a 

            10       dual purpose, win/win situation, if in fact it 

            11       can be.  To answer your question, we are 

            12       looking at going above and beyond what's even 

            13       asked for in the recommendations.

            14                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Jerry, can 

            15       you help me with the compliance question?  I'm 

            16       trying to understand which way we get better 

            17       compliance.  And I really don't understand the 

            18       difference here. 

            19                  DR. COOKE:  To clarify the sentinel 

            20       animal thing, first, because that's a good 

            21       point that he was bringing up.  You take an 

            22       animal that's susceptible to the kinds of 

            23       diseases you're concerned about, put him in a 

            24       pen, expose him for a period of time that they 

            25       can contract it, and then sacrifice that 





.
                                                                  49

             1       animal.  It's a $15 goat as opposed to a $1500 

             2       deer.  That's the advantage of that.  What he 

             3       was proposing is for 20 percent of the 

             4       permit -- of the scientific breeder permit 

             5       holders entering into this kind of monitoring 

             6       testing program with the Animal Health 

             7       Commission.  And I discussed this in some 

             8       detail with Doctor Baca, who is their, you 

             9       know, international guru on how to keep track 

            10       of TB and everything else.  And together we did 

            11       the calculations, you know, the real 

            12       statistical calculations on how many animals -- 

            13       excuse me, how many facilities you would have 

            14       to have in a testing program in order to be 

            15       able to detect a 2-percent prevalence of the 

            16       disease, which is low.  Okay.

            17                  When you look at the fact that there 

            18       is like 19,000 animals currently in breeder 

            19       facilities, there's 467 breeders, and their 

            20       normal mortality rate is from 12 to 13 percent.  

            21       That calculated into a monitoring program which 

            22       suggests that you only had to have 32.5 percent 

            23       of the facilities actually being monitored to 

            24       detect this 2 percent level.  And this would be 

            25       150 animals.  As Karl was talking about, we 





.
                                                                  50

             1       were talking arbitrarily about 20 to 30 percent 

             2       as a number.  When it calculates out, it's 

             3       32.5.

             4                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  It's just 

             5       a number that gives you statistical validity, 

             6       that's all.

             7                  DR. COOKE:  Statistical validity 

             8       and --

             9                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Okay.

            10                  DR. COOKE:  -- the highest 

            11       probability of being able to take that 

            12       2-percent prevalence.

            13                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  But it 

            14       doesn't take place of the definition you're 

            15       recommending, which is that healthy animals in 

            16       a --

            17                  DR. COOKE:  Correct, correct.

            18                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  -- Animal 

            19       Health Commission approved program?

            20                  DR. COOKE:  Absolutely.  We're doing 

            21       separate -- if 32.5 percent of the facilities 

            22       are not in a monitoring program, we can't 

            23       detect it, and then we're talking about 

            24       let's -- we're going to have to go to a 

            25       mandatory system.  I mean, that's what the 





.
                                                                  51

             1       postponement is all about.

             2                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  But we 

             3       need their goal to be 32 percent, not 20 

             4       percent.

             5                  DR. COOKE:  Let's put it this way.  

             6       If they hit 20 percent by May, they're on their 

             7       way to 32.  Let's put it that way. 

             8                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner Ramos 

             9       has a question.

            10                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Karl -- and 

            11       that was -- that's what was bothering me a 

            12       little bit -- do you anticipate that between 

            13       now and May you could get it up higher than 32 

            14       percent?  It's obvious to me that the more 

            15       participants that you have, the better it is 

            16       for everyone.  And you used the word 

            17       "unanimous" a little while ago.  Do you 

            18       anticipate that if we defer action on defining 

            19       healthy condition or otherwise that you will 

            20       have more than 32 percent of the scientific 

            21       breeders in this program? 

            22                  MR. KINSEL:  Let me ask this in 

            23       conjunction with Jerry, I think the number 

            24       we're talking about, 32 percent, is number of 

            25       animals?  Breeders? 





.
                                                                  52

             1                  DR. COOKE:  32 percent of breeders. 

             2                  MR. KINSEL:  Okay.  If we look at 

             3       that both on an animal basis numbers wise, I 

             4       think we're gonna have well over 32 percent of 

             5       the animals.  Because the 20 percent of the 

             6       breeders are gonna be the larger number 

             7       breeders.  But we can also probably comply very 

             8       easily with the 32 percent of the breeders.  I 

             9       do not see that being a problem at all.  We've 

            10       been unanimous in the three out of eight region 

            11       meetings we've had just in the last 15 days 

            12       regarding such.

            13                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  It seems to me 

            14       that the 32 should be a minimum, but ideally we 

            15       ought to get as my as high as 80 or 90 percent.  

            16       I mean, do you agree with that?

            17                  MR. KINSEL:  I do agree with that.  

            18       I do not see a problem with that.  All we 

            19       really are is we're premature in a lot of the 

            20       evaluation of what this disease is, how this 

            21       disease is, and how we circumvent this disease.  

            22       So as we learn more and do more, we'll be 

            23       involved more in that area.  The sentinel 

            24       animal program and a few other programs that 

            25       we're looking at will probably make it 





.
                                                                  53

             1       unanimous that all breeders are utilizing some 

             2       type of herd management plan.  It is only 

             3       sensible.

             4                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Yeah.  If you 

             5       do that, I'm very compelled to defer the 

             6       definition of healthy condition.  But at the 

             7       present time, do you-all have a proposed 

             8       definition of healthy condition? 

             9                  MR. KINSEL:  No, sir.  That is what 

            10       we're asking, is the time to develop that, 

            11       because we --

            12                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  How quickly do 

            13       you feel you can develop that?

            14                  MR. KINSEL:  Same answer.  We're 

            15       looking at yesterday or tomorrow, as soon as 

            16       possible, working with TPWD on that and TAHC as 

            17       soon as possible.

            18                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  And do you feel 

            19       that if we defer the definition of healthy 

            20       condition until the next commission meeting, 

            21       that that would be more than adequate time 

            22       for -- to come up with a definition that would 

            23       be palatable, as you might say, to your 

            24       breeders?

            25                  MR. KINSEL:  Not only do I feel 





.
                                                                  54

             1       comfortable with it, it is only common sense.  

             2       It has to happen.

             3                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Okay.  Great.  

             4       Thank you.

             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Karl, I have a 

             6       couple of questions.  First question -- but 

             7       first I want to say something, that I think 

             8       it's clear to you and to your organization that 

             9       although we all have to take this very, very 

            10       seriously, this is a precious resource that we 

            11       have, both as a wildlife resource and as an 

            12       economic resource, but that folks like you 

            13       stand to lose probably more than anybody else 

            14       if we don't deal with this.

            15                  With that in mind, I'm a little 

            16       bit -- I'd like to know the percentage of your 

            17       membership that is currently monitoring.  And 

            18       you say you want to get it to 20 percent.  

            19       Given the seriousness of this situation, I'm 

            20       surprised you're not there already. 

            21                  MR. KINSEL:  We've not known what 

            22       plan to monitor under, per se.  There are six 

            23       different operations right now that have been 

            24       doing this monitoring program even before now, 

            25       for their own benefits.  We all realize how 





.
                                                                  55

             1       fast this has come up on us.  So I understand 

             2       your question and I -- and I respect it.  And I 

             3       think if you ask it two or three weeks from 

             4       now, I could answer it greater better.  We're 

             5       moving as fast -- or hopefully faster than the 

             6       disease itself.

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I'll ask it in 

             8       three weeks.

             9                  MR. KINSEL:  You got it. 

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I like your time 

            11       line. 

            12                  MR. KINSEL:  Yes, ma'am.

            13                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  The second question 

            14       I have -- and I've got to say, I'm no expert in 

            15       this, but I have learned a lot in recent 

            16       times -- is concern with the BTB test that 

            17       is -- that I believe you have been working to 

            18       secure from Doctor Frank Griffin in New 

            19       Zealand.

            20                  MR. KINSEL:  Correct.

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  One, I would like 

            22       to know what the latest is on that; and 

            23       secondly, I want you to explain why an improved 

            24       test, which I understand is soon in coming -- 

            25       or might be soon in coming, that would not 





.
                                                                  56

             1       involve a skin patch test to get the 

             2       sensitivity level to where it needs to be in 

             3       order to make the BTB test ethical.  Is that 

             4       right?  Could you address those two questions? 

             5                  MR. KINSEL:  I sure can.  But you 

             6       just explained probably as much as I know in 

             7       layman's terms with regards to it, other than 

             8       that I did get to work extensively with the 

             9       skin test and the comparative.  And then 

            10       working with Scott Petty's organization and 

            11       with the fallow deer, we utilize the BTB very 

            12       successfully.  The improvements to that, I 

            13       believe the ELISA, which is now the LT, will 

            14       allow us to utilize the BTB without having to 

            15       inject antigen first.

            16                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  How significant is 

            17       that to your people? 

            18                  MR. KINSEL:  It's very significant.  

            19       There isn't anyone that raises deer even 

            20       extensively, and certainly not intensively, 

            21       that does not want to clarify if there is 

            22       anything within the pens or not.  Means and 

            23       methods has been our only problem, not desire.

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any 

            25       other questions from the Commission?  Joseph 





.
                                                                  57

             1       Fitzsimons. 

             2                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  

             3       Mr. Kinsel, I want to thank you for your 

             4       cooperation.  We've met various times in our 

             5       organization.  And the commitment is clear, and 

             6       I want to thank you also for your unconditional 

             7       support on the suspension of importation.  That 

             8       was very important to us. 

             9                  MR. KINSEL:  Thank you.

            10                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  And I join 

            11       the rest of the commissioners, I think, in 

            12       looking forward to your progress. 

            13                  MR. KINSEL:  That will be done. 

            14                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  And I would 

            15       like to echo the same thing Joe said.  I think 

            16       this is an extremely sensitive issue that has 

            17       great implications for the State.  And to the 

            18       extent that you-all can a hundred percent 

            19       cooperate, it would make our job a lot easier.  

            20       It's nice to have the rapport and be able to 

            21       reconcile differences and come up with 

            22       definitions.  So, again, I commend you and your 

            23       group.  Thank you. 

            24                  MR. KINSEL:  Thank you. 

            25                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Kirby Brown.  Then 





.
                                                                  58

             1       Jerry Johnson. 

             2                  MR. BROWN:  Madame Chairman, 

             3       members, my name is Kirby Brown.  I'm with the 

             4       Texas Wildlife Association.  And it's very 

             5       strange to be before you with the TWA instead 

             6       of with Parks & Wildlife, but I'm glad to do 

             7       that.  It's a great group.  Texas Wildlife 

             8       Association is a conservation organization that 

             9       owns or controls approximately 40 million acres 

            10       of wildlife habitat in Texas. 

            11                  We want to thank you for your due 

            12       deliberation and your work, especially in terms 

            13       of your work to get to this point.  And in the 

            14       emergency proclamation when the CWD issue 

            15       became very critical with the Wisconsin deer, 

            16       we think that's very good.  All we want to say 

            17       today is that we support the staff 

            18       recommendation.  We think it's a good one.  We 

            19       think this will work.  And we, too, want to see 

            20       a rapid time line on the development of the 

            21       health herd plan.  Thank you.

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Kirby.  

            23       Jerry Johnston. 

            24                  MR. JOHNSTON:  Madame Chairman, 

            25       Commissioners, I just want to say that I'm real 





.
                                                                  59

             1       happy with what I'm seeing.  And what I mean by 

             2       that is, is that rather than the Commission and 

             3       the people with Animal Health Commission, that 

             4       this thing has been looked at from a scientific 

             5       standpoint and a fact standpoint and that 

             6       hysteria hasn't entered into all the kids 

             7       getting clogged up when the fire bell rings. 

             8                  And one other thing that I'm just so 

             9       happy about is that, as you know, I had offered 

            10       to try to come up with some sort of an 

            11       option -- a reward fund or whatever 

            12       specifically ear-marked for someone that's 

            13       doing night hauling.  And I was so happy when I 

            14       got my copy of the release that was sent out.  

            15       Operation Game Thief has now upped their ante 

            16       to $25,000, and that means to me that we're 

            17       serious about this and it also means that I 

            18       don't have to do a lot of work.  So I'm real 

            19       happy about both those things.  And thank you 

            20       very much. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you very 

            22       much.  Oh, wait a second, we've got some 

            23       questions here. 

            24                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Mr. Johnston, I 

            25       wanted to -- there is no doubt that your 





.
                                                                  60

             1       organization and all the readers recognize the 

             2       seriousness of this issue.  I mean, it's a no 

             3       brainer.  And we appreciate your support.  And 

             4       we also, at least -- and I think I can speak 

             5       for the Commission -- we encourage you to 

             6       advise the general public of the significance 

             7       of this issue.  And --

             8                  MR. JOHNSTON:  Well, as a matter of 

             9       fact, I didn't point that out.  Our website, 

            10       ttha.com, they have a ranking system on the 

            11       Internet of what rank you are in terms of 

            12       visits.  And our site fluctuates between about 

            13       17 and 30 something, in terms of popularity in 

            14       the hunting -- those that are searching the 

            15       Internet for hunting-related type things.  And 

            16       we went ahead and added a link that flashes in 

            17       red on the home page of trophy hunters that 

            18       includes the entire press release that was sent 

            19       out about the $25,000 reward.  And which -- I'd 

            20       like to add this, too, Buddy Turner had the 

            21       foresight to basically plant the seed or the 

            22       ideas of what and where to look for.  In other 

            23       words, a person working in a truck stop, 

            24       wherever, you look for these type things.  And 

            25       I mean, if it's going to work, I don't know 





.
                                                                  61

             1       much else we can do. 

             2                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Thank you very 

             3       much for your support. 

             4                  MR. JOHNSTON:  You bet. 

             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

             6       further discussions on this very important 

             7       subject from the Commission?  Joseph 

             8       Fitzsimons. 

             9                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I would 

            10       move that we adopt the staff's recommendation 

            11       on Item 4, Madame Chair.

            12                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Second.

            13                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor? 

            14                  ("Aye.")

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Hearing 

            16       none, motion carries.  Thank you. 

            17                  (Motion passes.)

            18       "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 

            19       31 TAC Sections 65.601 and 65.609-65.611, 

            20       concerning cervid diseases in the Scientific 

            21       Breeder Proclamation, with changes to the 

            22       proposed text as published in the March 1, 2002 

            23       issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg 1463)."

            24        AGENDA ITEM NO. 5:  BRIEFING - STATUS OF CRAB 

            25                     TRAP REMOVAL PROGRAM





.
                                                                  62

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda item No. 5 

             2       is a briefing item, crab trap cleanup.  

             3       Mr. Osborne (sic), will you please make your 

             4       presentation.

             5                  (Whereupon a briefing was presented 

             6       to the Commission, the following proceedings 

             7       were heard:)

             8           AGENDA ITEM NO. 6:  ACTION - 2002-2003 

             9          STATEWIDE HUNTING AND FISHING PROCLAMATION

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Item Number 6 is 

            11       action item, statewide hunting and fishing 

            12       proclamation.  We begin with Mr. Durocher, then 

            13       Hal, and then Dr. Graham.  Will you please make 

            14       your presentations. 

            15                  MR. DUROCHER:  Madame Chairman, 

            16       members of the Commission, I'm Phil Durocher, 

            17       the director of the Inland Fisheries Divisions.  

            18       The proposals that I'm going to bring to you 

            19       today from Inland Fisheries are really the 

            20       culmination of a year-long process, where we -- 

            21       our staff biologists make recommendations and 

            22       they go through an extensive scoping, both 

            23       internally and externally.

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Phil, I hate to do 

            25       this to you, but I'm going to anyway.  We had 





.
                                                                  63

             1       some speakers that I failed to acknowledge from 

             2       the last item.  If you'd just leave that up on 

             3       the screen, I think it'd be appropriate to go 

             4       ahead and get that done.  And this was for 

             5       Agenda Item No. 5, the crab trap cleanup that 

             6       we just discussed.  And I do apologize.  We 

             7       have James Davenport, Wesley Blevins here to 

             8       speak.  Are they here? 

             9                  Mr. Davenport, I had a piece of 

            10       paper over your card.  I apologize.  Are there 

            11       any questions? 

            12                  Now we go back to the regular order 

            13       of things, Mr. Durocher, the statewide hunting 

            14       and fishing proclamation. 

            15                  MR. DUROCHER:  Thank you, Madame 

            16       Chairman.  For the record, again, I'm Phil 

            17       Durocher, the director of Inland Fisheries.  As 

            18       I said earlier, these regulation proposals that 

            19       we bring to you today are the culmination of a 

            20       year-long process. 

            21                  The public comments that you're 

            22       going to see here are primarily from our Web 

            23       survey that we conducted, taking comments on 

            24       these proposals. 

            25                  The first proposal that we have this 





.
                                                                  64

             1       year is at Purtis Creek State Park in Henderson 

             2       County.  We're asking to change the regulation 

             3       on sunfish from the seven-inch minimum and the 

             4       25-fish daily bag to a no minimum and no daily 

             5       bag.  Our goal here is to simplify the 

             6       regulations.  This was an experimental 

             7       regulation that we put in place on Purtis Creek 

             8       several years ago.  And we really haven't 

             9       reached a goals that we set for that 

            10       regulation, so we're asking that this lake be 

            11       brought back to the statewide standard. 

            12                  Comments on this regulation from the 

            13       Web survey, we had 74 people who indicated they 

            14       were for it and no one indicated they were 

            15       against it.

            16                  The second proposal is for Coleto 

            17       Creek reservoir in Goliad and Victoria County.  

            18       We're asking here to change the regulation on 

            19       red drum from the 20- to 28-inch reverse slot, 

            20       which is the regulation that's in place in 

            21       coastal waters, to a 20-inch minimum.  Daily 

            22       bag limit would remain at three fish.  This is 

            23       the regulation that's in place on all the 

            24       freshwater lakes that contain red drum.  And 

            25       we're asking that this be placed on Coleto 





.
                                                                  65

             1       Creek also because it is a freshwater lake.  

             2       And the red drum will not spawn in here.  The 

             3       only red drum in this lake are the ones that we 

             4       and coastal fisheries stock in this lake.  And 

             5       our goal here, again, is to maximize the angler 

             6       potential for the recently stocked red drum.

             7                  The next -- let me go back.  From 

             8       the Web survey, again, we had 61 people 

             9       indicated they were for this regulation and 

            10       four were against it.  And those that were 

            11       against it primarily didn't understand that the 

            12       red drum would not be spawning in this 

            13       reservoir. 

            14                  At Gibbons Creek Reservoir in Grimes 

            15       County, we're asking to change the limit on 

            16       large mouth bass from the current catch and 

            17       release to a 14- to 24-inch slot limit.  Our 

            18       goal here is to allow some harvest, hopefully 

            19       boosting angler interest in this reservoir.  

            20       This regulation was asked -- we were asked to 

            21       implement this regulation by the Texas 

            22       Municipal Power Agency who owns this reservoir.  

            23       They're trying to increase interest on here, 

            24       and we agreed with them. 

            25                  Again, from the survey, 70 people 





.
                                                                  66

             1       indicated they were for this regulation, and we 

             2       had nine that were against it.  And these were 

             3       primarily from a bass club people who are 

             4       concerned about slot limits and higher minimums 

             5       and their impact on tournaments.

             6                  The next proposal is for Brushy 

             7       Creek Lake in Williamson County.  This is a new 

             8       39-acre lake that will be opening sometime in 

             9       the next year.  What we're proposing here is to 

            10       enact -- to open the reservoir and an 18-inch 

            11       minimum length limit for large mouth bass.  Our 

            12       goal here is to protect the bass from 

            13       overharvest, from initial overharvest, which we 

            14       see on almost every reservoir that's open.

            15                  Again, from the Web survey, we had 

            16       60 people indicated they were for it and 10 

            17       people indicated they were against the 

            18       proposal.  Again, most of those against were 

            19       from tournament people.

            20                  At Lake Alan Henry in Garza County, 

            21       we're asking to change the limit on large mouth 

            22       bass from an 18-inch minimum, the current 

            23       limit, to a no minimum five fish bag.  Only 

            24       one -- only two fish can be less than 18 

            25       inches.  This is a regulation that we 





.
                                                                  67

             1       implemented on O.H. Ivie several years ago.  

             2       It's something that we think will have the same 

             3       impact that we have with slot limits and it's 

             4       an experimental regulation.  And so far what 

             5       we've done at Ivie's has worked. 

             6                  Well, at Lake Alan Henry we have a 

             7       really good fish population, but we're getting 

             8       an overpopulation of small fish.  And we need 

             9       to get some of these fish removed and hopefully 

            10       this regulation will get us there.  Comments 

            11       from the Web survey, again, 54 for and 12 

            12       indicated they were against it.

            13                  At Lake Proctor in Comanche County, 

            14       we're asking to change the limit on large mouth 

            15       bass from 14-inch minimum to a 16-inch minimum.  

            16       This lake was -- we had real low water levels 

            17       for several years at Lake Proctor.  Last 

            18       spring, we caught a lot of water and the lake 

            19       has filled up with young bass.  And what we're 

            20       asking this regulation, hopefully, it will 

            21       protect those bass for at least another year 

            22       and maintain some kind of fishery there for a 

            23       longer period than we normally do.  Again, from 

            24       the public comments from the Web survey, we had 

            25       59 for and 11 were against.





.
                                                                  68

             1                  The last two regulations are for 

             2       Possum Kingdom Reservoir in Palo Pinto County.  

             3       And these are related to our efforts to speed 

             4       up the recovery of this lake, which was hit 

             5       fairly hard with the golden algae two years 

             6       ago.  The first regulation that we're -- the 

             7       first change that we're proposing is to change 

             8       the limit on large mouth bass from a 14-inch 

             9       minimum to a 16-inch minimum. 

            10                  The lake is recovering.  We've 

            11       had -- we have a tremendous year class of young 

            12       fish coming on, not a lot of adults in the 

            13       population.  So we're asking that we protect 

            14       these fish at least for another year or year 

            15       and a half to allow us to build up the 

            16       population of adult fish.  And we have told the 

            17       anglers in the area that once we get the 

            18       population built up to where it was before the 

            19       golden algae outbreak, that we will certainly 

            20       look at changing these regulations back to what 

            21       they were previously.

            22                  And from the public hearings, we had 

            23       three people that testified against this.  And 

            24       these, again, were tournament people who were 

            25       concerned on what impact this regulation would 





.
                                                                  69

             1       have on tournaments.  And from the Web survey, 

             2       we had 65 who spoke for it -- who indicated 

             3       they were for it and 17 against. 

             4                  Also at Possum Kingdom, we're asking 

             5       to change the daily bag limit for striped bass 

             6       from five to two fish per day.  The 18-inch 

             7       minimum length limit, which is in effect 

             8       statewide, will be retained.  Our goal here, 

             9       again, is to assist the recovery of the 

            10       population of striped bass that was impacted by 

            11       the golden algae.  The only striped bass in 

            12       this reservoir are what we stocked.  There's no 

            13       reproduction here.  And last year we were 

            14       unsuccessful in our stocking, so we don't have 

            15       a lot of fish available.  And we think this 

            16       regulation will allow the population to recover 

            17       and also allow the guides on the lake who have 

            18       been working there for many years to continue 

            19       to fish even if it's at a lower level. 

            20                  And those are our, the proposals 

            21       from Inland Fisheries for 2002.  I'd be glad to 

            22       answer any questions. 

            23                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Any questions 

            24       from the Commission at this time? 

            25                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I'll move 





.
                                                                  70

             1       approval. 

             2                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  This will just 

             3       be part of it.  We'll get the others.  Thank 

             4       you, Phil.  Hal, you're up next. 

             5                  MR. OSBURN:  I'm Hal Osborne, 

             6       Coastal Fisheries Division Director.  I'll be 

             7       briefing you on the coastal fisheries portion 

             8       of the changes to the statewide hunting and 

             9       fishing proclamation.

            10                  Texas currently has a reciprocal 

            11       license agreement with Louisiana that allows 

            12       anglers to legally fish in common border waters 

            13       such as Toledo Bend Reservoir and Sabine Lake.  

            14       You can do that with either a Texas or a 

            15       Louisiana license.  And I want to make it clear 

            16       that there are no proposals that would change 

            17       that long-standing agreement.

            18                  The only proposed rule change is to 

            19       clarify that all fish landed in Texas or 

            20       possessed on Texas waters must conform to Texas 

            21       size and bag limits.  In fact, Louisiana also 

            22       has an identical regulation respective to their 

            23       state limits. 

            24                  One of the concerns that has 

            25       developed with the reciprocal agreement, 





.
                                                                  71

             1       particularly in Sabine lake, is that it has 

             2       been interpreted to allow anglers to take in 

             3       the same day, both a Texas and a Louisiana 

             4       limit of fish.  This can obviously lead to 

             5       excessive harvest and is certainly an equity 

             6       with all other Texas anglers who are restricted 

             7       to one Texas bag limit.

             8                  Our survey data indicate this is 

             9       currently not a high level of this double 

            10       tripping, but there is a definite upward trend, 

            11       particularly when we note that the fishing 

            12       pressure in Sabine Lake for both guides and 

            13       private boats has escalated to all time highs.

            14                  Staff believes the proposed rule 

            15       would benefit the State by reestablishing 

            16       equity among all Texas anglers and guides and 

            17       by improving the marine fish populations.  In 

            18       addition, law enforcement would be enhanced, 

            19       anglers would be less confused about landing 

            20       limits, and Texas would be consistent with not 

            21       only Louisiana, but also Mississippi, Alabama, 

            22       and Florida, all of whom have similar landing 

            23       laws.

            24                  Our initial scoping of this issue 

            25       last year indicated strong support from folks 





.
                                                                  72

             1       that we interviewed at boat ramps as they 

             2       finished their fishing trips.  Since then, we 

             3       have received petitions with numerous 

             4       signatures, both for and against.  Public 

             5       hearings were held and produced a majority of 

             6       opposition comments.  But other sources from 

             7       emails and telephone calls and letters were 

             8       mostly in favor. 

             9                  Based on staff's findings of facts, 

            10       we recommend no changes to the proposed rule, 

            11       except for some minor wording changes in the 

            12       proclamation to clarify the original intent.  

            13       That concludes the coastal portion, if there's 

            14       any questions. 

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            16       questions of Hal from the Commission? 

            17                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Hal, do you 

            18       happen to know what percentage of anglers in 

            19       Sabine are actually from Texas or from 

            20       Louisiana? 

            21                  MR. OSBURN:  Yes.  We get -- we 

            22       actually have an agreement with Louisiana that 

            23       allows us to survey anglers from Louisiana boat 

            24       ramps as well as the Texas boat ramps.  So we 

            25       have surveyed from all users.  And about 97 





.
                                                                  73

             1       percent of the anglers in Sabine Lake are 

             2       actually Texas residents.

             3                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  So this won't 

             4       effect -- Louisiana anglers, this will not 

             5       affect them in any way and Texas anglers who 

             6       want to launch in Louisiana will still be able 

             7       to, with a Louisiana license, be able to retain 

             8       a Louisiana limit.  Is that right? 

             9                  MR. OSBURN:  That's correct.  

            10       Actually, Texas anglers who launch and land in 

            11       Louisiana ramp can retain a Louisiana limit 

            12       even if they only have a Texas license.  So 

            13       that's the privilege that we have developed 

            14       between us and Louisiana for all the folks that 

            15       live around there, is you can fish with either 

            16       license.  But we're just asking that if you 

            17       land in Louisiana, you -- they ask that you 

            18       land their limits.  And when we're asking with 

            19       this proposal if you land in Texas, you land 

            20       the Texas limit. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            22       Angelo? 

            23                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  How could you, 

            24       for clarification, go through what the Texas 

            25       limit -- how the Texas limit differs from the 





.
                                                                  74

             1       Louisiana limit on the various fish? 

             2                  MR. OSBURN:  Yes, sir.  I had a 

             3       slide yesterday.  I'm sorry I didn't put it in 

             4       there.  The red drum, we have a three-fish bag 

             5       limit and they have a five-fish bag limit.  We 

             6       have a 20- to 28-inch minimum and maximum size.  

             7       They -- their size limits starts at 16, so they 

             8       would be harvesting smaller and more numerous 

             9       fish, red drum.  Spotted sea trout is probably 

            10       the most well-known sought after.  We have a 

            11       ten-fish bag limit, 15-inch minimum.  Louisiana 

            12       has a 25-fish bag limit at 12-inch minimum.  

            13       Flounder is another area of concern.  We have a 

            14       ten-fish bag and a 14-inch size limit.  

            15       Louisiana does have a ten-fish bag, but they 

            16       have no minimum size limit.  So there is a 

            17       significant harvest of small flounder.  They do 

            18       have -- we actually are more liberal on our 

            19       black drum, which is the last one I'll mention, 

            20       is they allow only up to a 27-inch black drum 

            21       to be landed.  Ours goes to 30 inches.  So if 

            22       you were to land in Louisiana ramp today with a 

            23       28-inch black drum that was legal in Texas, it 

            24       would be illegal in Louisiana.  And that's an 

            25       ongoing policy from Louisiana game wardens.





.
                                                                  75

             1                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Thank you.

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

             3       Fitzsimons.

             4                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Hal, what 

             5       impact does the no minimum on flounder have on 

             6       that resource?

             7                  MR. OSBURN:  Flounder is one of the 

             8       species that we -- we don't think we've fully 

             9       turned the corner on yet in our coastal waters.  

            10       Certainly we've addressed it in the last half 

            11       decade with the commission action, where they 

            12       raised the minimum size, lowered the bag limit, 

            13       established the first ever commercial bag 

            14       limit. 

            15                  We believe we also addressed it with 

            16       the shrimping rules for the requirement of a 

            17       buy-catch reduction device in some nursery 

            18       areas that will help that species.  But we 

            19       still have a lot of significant harvest.  We 

            20       are seeing fish being recruited into the 

            21       fishery faster, but they're not staying there 

            22       very long.  Once they get up to that 14 inches.

            23                  Our concern with the no size limit 

            24       in Louisiana is that the flounder are not able 

            25       to spawn until they're close to that 14-inch 





.
                                                                  76

             1       size limit.  And with the -- about 23 percent 

             2       of the flounder in Sabine Lake are actually 

             3       under 14 inches.  So you're talking about 

             4       almost a quarter of the harvest of the fish 

             5       that have not had a chance to spawn yet. 

             6                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Thank you.  

             7       That answers my question. 

             8                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  I believe 

             9       yesterday we had talked about -- or I had seen 

            10       a chart as relates to other bays as far as our 

            11       small flounder.  Would you expound upon that 

            12       just a bit, as far as how our flounder 

            13       populations compare to other bay systems in 

            14       Texas? 

            15                  MR. OSBURN:  Yes, sir.  And I need 

            16       to point out, the great benefit of having a 

            17       long-standing monitoring program in all the bay 

            18       systems.  We appreciate your support for that.

            19                  We're able to compare the flounder 

            20       length frequencies from Sabine Lake to all the 

            21       other bays.  And it's the harvest of small 

            22       flounder under the 14-inch size limit is 200 

            23       percent higher in Sabine Lake than all the 

            24       other bays.

            25                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Madame Chairman?





.
                                                                  77

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner Avila.

             2                  COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Hal, have we 

             3       ever tried collaborative efforts with -- I'm 

             4       sure we have, with Louisiana about raising, you 

             5       know, the size of their flounder bag limit? 

             6                  MR. OSBURN:  Yes, we have.  We've 

             7       tried to establish -- well, we've had a number 

             8       of meetings, we've shared our data with them.  

             9       They have not seen the need to press it in 

            10       their legislature, which is really where the 

            11       rule change would have to come from, although 

            12       some significant constituent groups over there 

            13       have continued to lobby for Louisiana to match 

            14       at least our spotted sea trout limits.  And 

            15       we're not going to give up on those efforts.  

            16       We've got a number of forms where we engage the 

            17       Louisiana managers, and we're hopeful that we 

            18       can convince them of the wisdom of that. 

            19                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Okay. 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Hal.  We 

            21       have quite a few people signed up to speak on 

            22       this.  Oh, we're going to -- I'm sorry.  I'm 

            23       going to get this right eventually.  Go ahead. 

            24                  MR. GRAHAM:  I'm Gary Graham, 

            25       director of the wildlife division, and I'm one 





.
                                                                  78

             1       of the ones that would like to speak on this 

             2       topic in depth about the proposals in the 

             3       wildlife division.

             4                  We have ten proposals this year, 

             5       seven of those deal with deer, two with turkey, 

             6       and one with the wildlife -- or with the 

             7       hunting license in general. 

             8                  The first proposal is for an 

             9       experimental regulation that will sunset after 

            10       three years.  With this proposal, we would 

            11       define what a legal buck is in order to address 

            12       the high harvest pressure and undesirable age 

            13       structure in these six counties in yellow.  

            14       This special regulation would not apply to 

            15       properties that have been issued level 2 or 

            16       level 3 managed-land deer permits.

            17                  In this proposal, a legal buck is a 

            18       deer that's defined as having a hardened antler 

            19       protruding through the skin and at least one 

            20       unbranched antler or an inside spread 

            21       measurement between the main beams of 13 inches 

            22       or greater, or six or more points on one 

            23       antler. 

            24                  The majority of the public comment 

            25       on this proposal has been in favor of 684 in 





.
                                                                  79

             1       support, 166 in opposition.  As I have 

             2       mentioned to you before, we've developed this 

             3       proposal with many of the sportsmen in these 

             4       six counties, some of whom are represented here 

             5       today and I anticipate will have some comments 

             6       at the end.

             7                  Should this -- should you choose to 

             8       pass this proposal, it would protect about 65 

             9       percent of the buck portion of the herd.

            10                  It is illegal to use dogs to hunt 

            11       anywhere in Texas, to hunt -- illegal to use 

            12       dogs to hunt deer anywhere in Texas.  

            13       Currently, however, up to two dogs can be used 

            14       to trail wounded deer in all parts of Texas 

            15       except for the far eastern counties where the 

            16       trailing use is prohibited.  Because we are 

            17       confident that the trailing prohibition is no 

            18       longer needed in these 11 counties in yellow, 

            19       we propose that you allow the use of no more 

            20       than two dogs to trail wounded deer in 

            21       northeast Texas.  97 of the public comments 

            22       were supportive of this; 77 were against it.

            23                  When we revised the managed-land 

            24       deer permits a year ago, we created two 

            25       unintended and undesirable conditions on 





.
                                                                  80

             1       level 2 properties.  We precluded the harvest,  

             2       with guns, of spike deer during the early 

             3       season and we precluded archers from being able 

             4       to harvest any buck during the early season, 

             5       which is archery only in surrounding 

             6       properties.  Not being able to harvest spikes 

             7       when hunting does with guns is a problem 

             8       because some spikes are almost always 

             9       mistakenly harvested.  And this proposal to 

            10       allow spikes to be taken in the early season 

            11       will correct that problem.  140 of the comments 

            12       were supportive; 33 were opposed. 

            13                  Allowing bucks to be harvested by 

            14       archers on these same level 2 properties would 

            15       make those properties consistent with other 

            16       adjacent properties.  And the comments here 

            17       were 148 in support; 20 in opposition.  The 

            18       current regs for these counties in yellow allow 

            19       for the harvest of does for 16 days, starting 

            20       with the beginning of the general season.  Doe 

            21       harvest in this region, however, remains fairly 

            22       conservative and we've determined that the 

            23       populations could sustain more harvest in all 

            24       of these counties except for Hall County in 

            25       red, which was added to this list by mistake. 





.
                                                                  81

             1                  Consequently, we propose to extend 

             2       the number of doe days in the 16 counties by 

             3       establishing the season to run from opening day 

             4       through the Sunday following Thanksgiving.  135 

             5       people were in support of this and 32 were 

             6       opposed to it.

             7                  When we created the youth only 

             8       season last year, we incorrectly allowed 

             9       unrestricted anterless harvest during the late 

            10       youth only season in some counties where 

            11       anterless harvest had been and should continue 

            12       to be restricted by issuance of doe permits.  

            13       Deleting the phrase and -- let's see.  Let me 

            14       read it up here.  And no TPWD issued permits is 

            15       required would correct this oversight.

            16                  We would like to remove the 

            17       requirement that an unskinned head must be 

            18       retained for white-tailed deer.  Note that a 

            19       skinned head would still be required.  

            20       Originally this reg was created to be 

            21       consistent with antelope regs, where it was 

            22       required to distinguish the sex -- sexes 

            23       between harvested animals.  But because the 

            24       pelage differences don't exist for white-tailed 

            25       deer is part of the reason why we make this 





.
                                                                  82

             1       recommendation.  159 people were -- commented 

             2       in support of this and 29 were opposed to it.

             3                  The first of the turkey proposals is 

             4       to provide a fall season in Hill County, where 

             5       there is a spring season currently.  146 

             6       comments were supportive; only 10 were opposed 

             7       to it.  And the second one is to provide a 

             8       spring season for eastern wild turkey in these 

             9       four counties in yellow, where the populations 

            10       are strong and we believe sufficient enough to 

            11       sustain hunting harvest.  139 comments came in 

            12       in favor of this and nine were opposed to it.

            13                  The last statewide proposal is one 

            14       from the law enforcement, and it would require 

            15       hunters to fill out a tag log on the back of 

            16       the hunting license, and the tag log pertains 

            17       to white-tailed deer only.  This requirement is 

            18       designed to help wardens enforce bag limits for 

            19       deer and to simplify the language on the deer 

            20       tags that would be found on our new and 

            21       improved license.  156 comments were in support 

            22       of this and 51 were opposed to it.

            23                  Our collective recommended motion is 

            24       as follows: the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            25       Commission adopts the 2002-2003 Statewide 





.
                                                                  83

             1       Hunting and Fishing Proclamation, with changes 

             2       to the proposal as published in the 

             3       February 22nd, 2002 issue of the Texas Register 

             4       and the rule review of 31 TAC Chapter 65, 

             5       located as Exhibit B, with changes to the 

             6       proposal pertaining to the season closures that 

             7       we presented yesterday and as published in the 

             8       February 22nd, 2002 issue of the Texas 

             9       Register. 

            10                  That concludes my presentation.  

            11       I'll be glad to answer any of your questions. 

            12                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            13       questions from the Commission of Mr. Graham? 

            14                  MR. GRAHAM:  Thank you. 

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Now, we will hear 

            16       from the people signed up to speak.  We have 

            17       quite a few.  I want to remind you that you 

            18       have three minutes.  First we have -- the first 

            19       person signed up to speak on Item 6 is 

            20       Ellis Gilleland, followed by Kirby Brown.  

            21       Mr. Gilleland.  

            22                  MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 

            23       Gilleland, speaking for Texas Animal Rights 

            24       Organization on the Internet.  I'm sorry.  I 

            25       only have a one-page handout to give you.  It 





.
                                                                  84

             1       is a publication which you may already be 

             2       familiar with.  It's Parks and Wildlife State 

             3       Parks Division, Operating Instruction 

             4       Number 024, subject, wildlife feeding 

             5       limitation and guidelines, dated May 2001.  

             6       This is an 11-page document and I just gave you 

             7       the first page because I'm sure you're familiar 

             8       with it and you can reproduce it a lot cheaper 

             9       than I can.  This outlaws the feeding of corn, 

            10       deer corn -- corn to deer in state parks. 

            11                  Now, we're talking about statewide 

            12       hunting and some yahoo wants to feed corn to 

            13       deer.  So what are you going to do?  Are you 

            14       going to have two different rules, one applying 

            15       outside the state park and one inside the state 

            16       park?  That's the question that you have to 

            17       resolve.  You have outlawed feeding deer in 

            18       state parks corn.  Now, I'm telling you that -- 

            19       I'm asking you to make a rule to outlaw feeding 

            20       corn to deer hunters outside of state parks.  

            21       And you lawyers will appreciate the 

            22       ramifications of having a law whereby the 

            23       person can plead in court to the judge, and I 

            24       think it would be accepted that if it's -- 

            25       you've got 99 signs at Choke Canyon State Park 





.
                                                                  85

             1       that tell you why you shouldn't feed corn to 

             2       deer, and suddenly you've got to tell the judge 

             3       why, when you step off the state park, oh, it's 

             4       all right to shoot deer under a corn feeder. 

             5                  So I'm asking you to reconcile, just 

             6       like you've got to reconcile 180 bank accounts 

             7       and the cars and the checks and the credit 

             8       cards and all the other property and all the 

             9       boats and all the stuff that you've got to 

            10       reconcile, according to Mr. Bomer.  Well, I'll 

            11       asking you to reconcile your own cotton-picking 

            12       laws.  You've got a law that says, "No feeding 

            13       of corn in state parks."  Now, I'm asking you, 

            14       pretty please, make a rule, a law, to outlaw 

            15       feeding of corn to deer outside of state parks.  

            16       Thank you. 

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  Kirby 

            18       Brown and then Skip James. 

            19                  MR. BROWN:  Madame Chairman, 

            20       Commissioners, my name for the record is Kirby 

            21       Brown with the Texas Wildlife Association.  We 

            22       fully support the staff's recommendations.  

            23       Thank you very much. 

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Kirby.  

            25       Skip James, and then -- oh, gosh, Albert 





.
                                                                  86

             1       Fumuso. 

             2                  MR. JAMES:  Hi, folks.  My name is 

             3       Skip James.  The last 11 years I've been on 

             4       Sabine Lake as a guide.  We have a petition 

             5       with 1300 names total.  580 names were already 

             6       certified.  Did you know that Sabine Lake is a 

             7       hundred square miles?  It's huge.  It's not 

             8       landlocked.  It connects to the Gulf.  

             9       Migratory fish move in and out.  Spotted sea 

            10       trout are migratory.  They're asking you to 

            11       eliminate the practice of bringing in fish, 

            12       legally taking fish from Louisiana into Texas.  

            13       I guide on the lake.  I take kids, families, 

            14       elderly people.  If you vote yes, it simply 

            15       makes it hard for those folks.  Fishing is hard 

            16       enough.  Don't make it any harder on Sabine 

            17       Lake.  It's huge.  It's windblown.  The fish 

            18       don't bite every day.  We can't get out there 

            19       every day. 

            20                  You're being told that recreational 

            21       anglers can impact population dynamics of 

            22       Cynoscion nebulosus.  We just think that's just 

            23       out of the question.  We think must be real 

            24       good if we can catch those fish down to 

            25       dangerously low levels. 





.
                                                                  87

             1                  We have some possible solutions for 

             2       you to consider considering.  We would ask that 

             3       you would assign a task force to study and make 

             4       recommendation.  We would ask that you try to 

             5       work harder with the State of Louisiana in 

             6       reaching common limits, common limits, where 

             7       the lake had one limit for all species of fish.  

             8       We'd ask you to consider not making any changes 

             9       unless there was sufficient scientific data to 

            10       support this.  If, in fact, the biologists are 

            11       most interested in spotted sea trout, then make 

            12       it make the changes trout specific.

            13                  MR. COOK:  Mr. James, your time is 

            14       up, sir. 

            15                  MR. JAMES:  In conclusion, we just 

            16       ask that you think about the children.  You're 

            17       making it hard for them.  Thank you. 

            18                  MR. COOK:  Thank you, sir. 

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Albert Fumuso, 

            20       followed by Walt Glasscock.

            21                  MR. FUMUSO:  Madame Chairman, 

            22       Commissioners, my name is Albert Fumuso.  I 

            23       live in Beaumont.  Captain Skip James over here 

            24       is a good friend of mine and has been for 

            25       several years, along with several other people.  





.
                                                                  88

             1       I'm not a commercial fisherman, I'm not a 

             2       guide.  I take my family and my grandkids.  I 

             3       take a lot of other people that don't get to go 

             4       fishing like they used to to Sabine Lake.  Like 

             5       Skip says, it is a big lake, it's not 

             6       landlocked.  There's jetties that come migrate 

             7       in and out.  My concern is it's not really too 

             8       much with the limits of trout, speckled trout, 

             9       redfish, whatever they may be, because I'm 

            10       going to take my friends, my son-in-laws, I'm 

            11       going to take them fishing anyway.  And, again, 

            12       you don't catch them every day. 

            13                  But the problem that I have -- and I 

            14       wish you could consider, is that if you put in 

            15       in Texas and you do fish Sabine Lake, you do 

            16       fish on the Louisiana side and you do have a 

            17       Louisiana license and you do come back and put 

            18       your boat back in Texas, why can't the Texas 

            19       game wardens check your fish?  If you come into 

            20       Texas and the trout limit is ten and I've 

            21       got -- this man right here and myself, we've 

            22       got 45 and we pull up to the boat ramp and the 

            23       Texas game warden comes over and he says, 

            24       "How'd y'all do?"  And I said, "Well, we caught 

            25       45 trout, but we caught them over here in 





.
                                                                  89

             1       Louisiana."  He says, "Okay.  Fine.  Have a 

             2       nice day." 

             3                  Why can't they check to see if we 

             4       have a fishing license in the state of 

             5       Louisiana?  And if we don't, you need to cite 

             6       us.  And that revenue would go back into Texas.  

             7       I don't -- what is the deal there?  I mean, 

             8       right now basically all you've got to do is 

             9       say, "I got one."  And, "Okay.  Have a nice 

            10       day.  See y'all later."  What's the matter with 

            11       that?  How hard is that?  Why can't these folks 

            12       back here, these recruits back here, why can't 

            13       they have the right to check a boat of 

            14       fishermen -- they check them for license, life 

            15       jackets, registration.  That's their job; 

            16       that's fine, they need to.  Why can't they 

            17       check them for this other stuff?  What's up 

            18       with that?  Has anybody ever thought of that?  

            19       Has anybody ever discussed it?  How hard is 

            20       that to do?  You know, that would kill all 

            21       these people that don't have a Louisiana 

            22       license fishing in Lake Sabine that do come 

            23       back to the boat ramp and they do have a 

            24       Louisiana license -- I mean, they do have a 

            25       Louisiana limit, but they don't have a 





.
                                                                  90

             1       Louisiana license.  "Yes, sir.  Have a nice 

             2       day."  Well, you burn them a couple of times, I 

             3       guarantee you, they will either quit fishing on 

             4       that Louisiana side over there or they're going 

             5       to go down here to Wal-Mart or they're going to 

             6       go somewhere and they're going to buy a 

             7       Louisiana license.  Don't they have restitution 

             8       fees and that kind of stuff?  I'm not that deep 

             9       into that, but --

            10                  And another thing, too, as far as 

            11       the alcohol, as far as driving the boat, 

            12       whether it's me or whoever it may be going up 

            13       and down the river, we come back in to the boat 

            14       ramp over here and the wardens are out there 

            15       checking, "Well, let's give these guys a 

            16       breathalyzer test.  Okay.  Fine.  Hey, wait a 

            17       minute.  We're from Louisiana."  Well, if they 

            18       can give me a breathalyzer test and my alcohol 

            19       content level is way above what it should be --

            20                  MR. COOK:  Mr. Fumuso, your time is 

            21       up, sir. 

            22                  MR. FUMUSO:  All right.  If they 

            23       could run me in for that, why not the other?  

            24       Thank you very much.

            25                  MR. GLASSCOCK:  Madame Chairman, 





.
                                                                  91

             1       Commissioners, thank you so much for this 

             2       opportunity.  I'm Walt Glasscock, president of 

             3       the Texas Sportsmen Association, which is 

             4       located -- headquartered in the Southern Post 

             5       Oak region. 

             6                  For 30 years, we've had significant 

             7       problems with the declining deer herd.  And 

             8       with the proposed legislation on antler 

             9       restrictions, our organization, its annual 

            10       meeting this last March 3rd, passed this 

            11       resolution. 

            12                  For the past 12 years, the Texas 

            13       Sportsmen Association has worked toward the 

            14       enhancement of our declining deer herd.  And 

            15       whereas the membership of the Texas Sportsmen 

            16       Association is aware that many man hours were 

            17       provided by the Texas Parks and Wildlife staff 

            18       to bring forward meaningful buck harvest 

            19       regulations in this past year, specifically for 

            20       the experimental six-county region; and, 

            21       whereas the proposed harvest regulations are 

            22       acceptable to the TSA organization and to date 

            23       are receiving overwhelming support.  Therefore, 

            24       be it resolved that the Texas Sportsmen 

            25       Association wishes to extend our sincere thanks 





.
                                                                  92

             1       and appreciation to all the Texas Parks and 

             2       Wildlife staff and Commissioners who helped in 

             3       this pending proposal.  And three cheers for 

             4       turkey hunting in the four counties adjoining 

             5       us. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Roy Callais, is 

             7       that right?  And Larry Whigham. 

             8                  MR. CALLAIS:  Madame Chairman, 

             9       Board, Roy Callais, Port Arthur, Texas, sports 

            10       fisherman.  I'm not a public speaker, so bear 

            11       with me.  It's not my cup of tea.  I'm going to 

            12       try to make a point, and I hope it comes 

            13       across.  Down in that area, your Sabine ship 

            14       channel, your lake, you have Louisiana on one 

            15       side, Texas on the other.  You have shrimpers 

            16       go out, Texas season is closed, they go 

            17       shrimping in Louisiana.  They bring their catch 

            18       back to Texas, sell it on Texas docks.  Big 

            19       lake, Calcasieu, whatever, they open up.  Texas 

            20       shrimpers go over there, bring their shrimp 

            21       back to Texas docks, sell their catch.  

            22       Crabbers down there -- I think Texas has a 200 

            23       trap limit that they can have per license.  

            24       Louisiana license you can have all the traps 

            25       you want.  Texas crabbers go into Louisiana, 





.
                                                                  93

             1       catch crabs, bring them back to Texas docks.  

             2       Nobody cares.  At least, I haven't heard that 

             3       they do.  But now that I want to bring a 

             4       speckled trout or 12 speckled trout or 11 or 

             5       25, as a matter of fact, anybody that brings 35 

             6       ought to be taken -- ought to be dealt with.  

             7       But if I go to Louisiana, buy a Louisiana 

             8       license, and want to bring these trout back to 

             9       my dock or my boat ramp, I feel like I'm being 

            10       discriminated against, when all these other 

            11       people are allowed to do this.  Whether this is 

            12       an infringement, I don't know.  Y'all know the 

            13       laws, I'm just -- I'm up here pleading my case.

            14                  When I buy that license, I'm in 

            15       agreement with Louisiana, I would expect -- or 

            16       want Texas to honor it.  I would like to see 

            17       Texas and Louisiana get at the bargaining 

            18       table, whatever it takes to get a mutual 

            19       agreement on this.  It shouldn't have to come 

            20       to this.  It should be done there.  And that, 

            21       to me, would be in the best interest of 

            22       everybody.  Common limits, you know, something 

            23       of that nature.

            24                  As far as the -- bringing 25 

            25       shrimp -- fish or 12 fish or whatever it is, 





.
                                                                  94

             1       the fisheries down there are doing well.  

             2       Jeremy Brais (sic) I've talked with him, he 

             3       shows me the charts.  Even with the reciprocal 

             4       agreement the way it is and the law allowing us 

             5       to bring these fish back, the fishery is doing 

             6       well, it's healthy, Sabine Lake has never been 

             7       stocked with speckled trout.  It's 

             8       overwhelmingly good.  The charts show the fish 

             9       are getting bigger, they're getting more of 

            10       them every year, that there's no problem.  I 

            11       mean, we're trying to fix a problem or 

            12       whatever, control something that's not there.  

            13       That's -- it's -- in my opinion, that is.

            14                  We had a meeting down there with 

            15       Texas Parks and Wildlife not long back.  And 

            16       the response of the area -- the resident people 

            17       there of Sabine Lake was overwhelmingly against 

            18       this change in rules and laws or whatever y'all 

            19       decide to call it.  I'm not a public speaker.  

            20       I'm about to wet all over myself right now.  

            21       But anyway --

            22                  MR. COOK:  Sir? 

            23                  MR. CALLAIS:  Anyway, we was over --

            24                  MR. COOK:  Sir?

            25                  MR. CALLAIS:  They were 





.
                                                                  95

             1       overwhelmingly against --

             2                  MR. COOK:  Sir, your time is up. 

             3                  MR. CALLAIS:  I'm asking the board 

             4       to leave it like it is or get back with them 

             5       coconuts next door. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Larry Whigham, and 

             7       then Jerry Norris. 

             8                  MR. WHIGHAM:  Madame Chairman, 

             9       members of the Commission, my name is Larry 

            10       Whigham.  I'm here today representing the Texas 

            11       Organization of Wildlife Management 

            12       Associations, commonly referred to as TOMA.  We 

            13       are an organization that binds together over 60 

            14       separate wildlife management associations, 

            15       consisting of over 400 -- excuse me, over 4,000 

            16       members who own or manage 1.7 million acres of 

            17       land in Texas.

            18                  The members of TOMA overwhelmingly 

            19       support the experimental white-tailed deer 

            20       antler restriction regulation for Austin, 

            21       Colorado, Fayette, Lavaca, Lee, and Washington 

            22       Counties.  These six counties have 30 wildlife 

            23       management associations with a membership of 

            24       2528 landowners who control more than 526,000 

            25       acres.  All of these associations are members 





.
                                                                  96

             1       of TOMA.  We who manage our land for wildlife 

             2       are acutely aware of the deleterious effects of 

             3       extreme land fragmentation has on our 

             4       white-tailed deer population.  And we are 

             5       working hard to collectively manage our 

             6       properties to overcome these effects, but we 

             7       could use your help. 

             8                  We feel your Oak Prairie district 

             9       leader, Mr. Bob Carroll, has done an 

            10       outstanding job of analyzing available data to 

            11       determine the best way to restore the 

            12       biological functionality of our deer herd.  I 

            13       have observed the proposed regulation with 

            14       stand scrutiny of many reasonable and 

            15       open-minded wildlife experts.  Further, it 

            16       responds to those landowners who have requested 

            17       regulatory help during the past ten or so 

            18       years.  The first time Mr. Carroll revealed his 

            19       proposed regulation in a TOMA meeting, it came 

            20       within one vote of unanimous support.  Let me 

            21       add that TOMA members realize that Texas Parks 

            22       and Wildlife cannot unilaterally fix our deer 

            23       herd.  We must and will continue our efforts to 

            24       increase deer habitat both in quantity and 

            25       quality. 





.
                                                                  97

             1                  Last, Madame Chairman, I want to 

             2       take this opportunity to thank Parks and 

             3       Wildlife for its outstanding support of all 

             4       wildlife management associations and their 

             5       members.  Your field biologists are fantastic 

             6       facilitators of our organizations providing 

             7       expert technical leadership and advice.  In 

             8       addition, they frequently work long hours, 

             9       including evenings and weekends, meeting with 

            10       members and landowners to develop wildlife 

            11       management strategies for their individual 

            12       properties.  This willing collaboration with 

            13       landowners multiplies your effectiveness many 

            14       times toward achieving our common goals.  In 

            15       this instance, the word "co-op" takes on an 

            16       entirely different meaning.  Thank you very 

            17       much. 

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  We have 

            19       Jerry Norris and Greg Schomburg.

            20                  MR. NORRIS:  Madame Chairman and 

            21       members of the Commission, my name is Jerry 

            22       Norris from Port Arthur, Texas.  I'm speaking 

            23       in favor of the proposal for Sabine Lake.  When 

            24       I appeared before the Commission at the public 

            25       hearing in August 2000, concerned sportsmen on 





.
                                                                  98

             1       our common boundary waters of Sabine Lake 

             2       requested that the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

             3       receive petitions that in context mirror a 

             4       proposal the Parks and Wildlife officials now 

             5       endorse.  Since then, the Commission has 

             6       directed the fisheries personnel to gather 

             7       dock-side surveys concerning the bag limits 

             8       landed on Texas docks that surround Sabine 

             9       Lake. 

            10                  As you are aware, 78 percent of the 

            11       fishermen surveyed were in favor of involving 

            12       Texas size and bag limits to be landed in 

            13       Texas.  This represents fishermen that are 

            14       concerned about Sabine Lake's fishery. 

            15                  Texas continues to be the leader in 

            16       coastal fisheries management.  For example, 

            17       Texas pulled the gill nets out of the bays with 

            18       the tireless effort of conservation-minded men 

            19       and women with a vision for the future who took 

            20       a stand during a time Texas bay systems were in 

            21       the early stages of overfishing.  These men and 

            22       women from the Texas Parks and Wildlife and the 

            23       Coastal Conservation Association saw a future 

            24       that was very bleak for coastal resources and 

            25       decided to pursue changes that have now 





.
                                                                  99

             1       catapulted Texas coastal fishing into a 

             2       thriving recreational and economic success. 

             3                  To prove my point, Louisiana, 

             4       Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida have 

             5       implemented similar conservation-minded 

             6       regulations.  The point I'd like to make here 

             7       is that we are setting the standard for the 

             8       entire Gulf.  And by adopting these regulations 

             9       on Sabine Lake, we set the example for 

            10       Louisiana.  These states have realized the 

            11       economic benefits of strong coastal fisheries.  

            12       As a fishing guide on Sabine Lake for the last 

            13       18 years, I have experienced firsthand the 

            14       benefits of decisive conservation measures.  

            15       The fishing guides on Sabine Lake will not 

            16       suffer and the recreational fishermen will not 

            17       suffer.  This proposal for Sabine Lake will be 

            18       another step in the direction of maintaining a 

            19       positive, forward-looking fisheries management 

            20       profile, which is a representation of 

            21       commitment to the wildlife and economic welfare 

            22       of Texas. 

            23                  New regulations that promote 

            24       conservation are not always popular.  Although 

            25       benefits are often seen in a very short time 





.
                                                                 100

             1       after implementation of the new regulations.  

             2       This Commission has the opportunity to continue 

             3       a legacy for the true sportsmen of Texas.  A 

             4       legacy that will be shared and appreciated by 

             5       others.  Thank you. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  Greg 

             7       Schomburg.

             8                  MR. SCHOMBURG:  Madame Chairman, 

             9       members of the Commission, my name is Greg 

            10       Schomburg.  I'm past chairman of the Washington 

            11       County Wildlife Society, which I am here 

            12       representing today.  The society consists of 

            13       seven wildlife co-ops covering the entire 

            14       county with membership of more than 400 


            15       landowners, representing over 40,000 acres. 

            16                  Our organization vigorously supports 

            17       the proposed white-tailed deer restriction 

            18       regulation as published in the February 22nd 

            19       Texas Register.  We feel your district leader 

            20       Bob Carroll has done an outstanding job of 

            21       analyzing deer harvest and other data to come 

            22       up with a solid biologically-based regulation.  

            23       He has presented his rationale for the 

            24       regulation on three separate occasions of the 

            25       society and other public meetings in Washington 





.
                                                                 101

             1       County.  The overwhelming landowners support 

             2       this regulation. 

             3                  Washington County unfortunately 

             4       suffers from effect of severe land 

             5       fragmentation.  According to our tax appraisal, 

             6       rural landowners in Washington County average 

             7       only about 40 acres.  The fragmentation, 

             8       though, the years has resulted in significant 

             9       loss to wildlife habitat.  Our society members 

            10       are working hard to restore the habitat and 

            11       implement other management practices relating 

            12       to white-tailed deer.  Since this data indicate 

            13       that we are having some success, but to 

            14       ultimately achieve our goal of restoring health 

            15       of the meager deer herd, we need the help 

            16       afforded by this regulation.  Let me assure you 

            17       that implementation of this regulation will in 

            18       no way diminish our efforts. 

            19                  I want to thank Bob Carroll and our 

            20       county biologist, Robert Lehmann, both who 

            21       enthusiastically support the efforts of our 

            22       organization.  Further, we appreciate Texas 

            23       Parks and Wildlife's commitment to wildlife 

            24       management associations throughout the state.  

            25       Thank you very much. 





.
                                                                 102

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  That is 

             2       it for the speakers.  But I want to -- I want 

             3       to be sure that we get all the questions that 

             4       we have answered.  And I think I'm going a 

             5       little bit differently than we usually do.  But 

             6       in the interest of a full hearing, I would like 

             7       the Commission to respond to the two issues 

             8       that seem to be the most sensitive here: one, 

             9       the hunting -- the antler restrictions in those 

            10       counties; and the Sabine Lake issues, so that 

            11       we can ask questions of some of the speakers 

            12       that were up here, should we have any. 

            13                  Let's deal with the Sabine Lake 

            14       issues first.  Does the Commission have any 

            15       questions or comments regarding the issues 

            16       surrounding Sabine Lake?  Commissioner Rising.

            17                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Hal, I had a 

            18       question.  I know there's been some discussion 

            19       about trying to coordinate our efforts with 

            20       Louisiana legislators.  And before we would 

            21       even talk about anything like that, I think 

            22       it's important to at least look at what 

            23       direction we want our fishery to head.  And I 

            24       was wanting to know if you had any information 

            25       about the relative size distributions of 





.
                                                                 103

             1       speckled trout in Louisiana as they compare to 

             2       Texas.  Do they have an overall smaller fish 

             3       size compared to what we have in Texas bays? 

             4                  MR. OSBURN:  Actually, Louisiana 

             5       does not have the comprehensive adult fish 

             6       surveys or juvenile fish surveys, for that 

             7       matter, that we have.  So I'm not aware of a 

             8       comparable dataset.  But from the -- we do have 

             9       some information from their harvest surveys, 

            10       what the recreational fishermen bring in.  And 

            11       that's where I -- we're able to document that 

            12       the fish that they bring in with the 12-inch 

            13       size limit is probably about half as large in 

            14       weight as the average Texas fish brought in. 

            15                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  So I guess the 

            16       big point is, we have to look and see where we 

            17       want -- if we want to mirror Louisiana before 

            18       we want talk about making any changes.

            19                  MR. OSBURN:  Correct.  The fishing 

            20       in -- when we don't have a commercial fishery 

            21       involved, you have more latitude to deal with 

            22       the social and the economic issues surrounding 

            23       the fish.  How do you want, as a society, to 

            24       bring those fish out of the water?  And 

            25       obviously, we're looking with our spotted sea 





.
                                                                 104

             1       trout work group, at establishing some goals 

             2       for and objectives for our trout fishery.  But 

             3       certainly the trend to date is that we want 

             4       more quality fish, not necessarily more smaller 

             5       fish. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner Angelo 

             7       has a question. 

             8                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Hal, we've 

             9       gotten a lot, of, I guess, somewhat 

            10       contradictory statements regarding the benefits 

            11       or lack of benefits of being able to restrict 

            12       the size and so on and the numbers of the fish 

            13       being caught.  What benefits do you really see 

            14       that we're going to be able to obtain if these 

            15       restrictions are put in?  Considering the size 

            16       of the lake, as the gentleman mentioned, and 

            17       the fact that it is connected to the bay and so 

            18       on, how do you respond to that? 

            19                  MR. OSBURN:  Well, I would respond 

            20       to that that everything is relative.  Sabine 

            21       Lake, though, is our smallest bay system.  And 

            22       all of our other bay systems also connect to 

            23       the gulf.  Fish, particularly spotted sea 

            24       trout, yes, are migratory, but they do not have 

            25       great ranges to where we would lose them out of 





.
                                                                 105

             1       a system or expect to lose them out of a 

             2       system.  They will stay from -- based on our 

             3       tagging data, they will stay in their bay -- 

             4       their home bay system if the weather conditions 

             5       and food availability is right.

             6                  So I would have to respectfully 

             7       disagree that -- with the gentleman that said 

             8       that anglers cannot affect trout populations 

             9       with fishing mortality.  We have examples 

            10       throughout the country of that very thing 

            11       happening, and that's why we have size and bag 

            12       limits to begin with.  We are getting to be 

            13       very efficient, as anglers.  Trout stay in 

            14       schools in particular.  These guides, they're 

            15       great; they're great fishermen.  And we want to 

            16       support that industry by making sure that there 

            17       are fish for the customers to want to come 

            18       down.  So I would say that -- that we do have a 

            19       quality concern about the fish and a quantity 

            20       concern on the horizon.

            21                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Hal, one of the 

            22       things that some of the people are opposed to 

            23       this are saying is that when you say quality 

            24       fish, that we're actually going to -- looking 

            25       for size trophies, in other words, something 





.
                                                                 106

             1       similar to maybe what we've tried to develop in 

             2       the bass fishing, where I think everyone seems 

             3       to be in favor of it.

             4                  But if people are concerned about 

             5       the idea that we're looking for trophies, 

             6       what -- how do you respond to that in the sense 

             7       that that also would -- what impact that also 

             8       has to the overall fishery to restrict the 

             9       sizes? 

            10                  MR. OSBURN:  Well, and as you're 

            11       aware, this proposal is only to establish the 

            12       15-inch -- 15-inch ten-fish bag on trout. 

            13                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Trophy? 

            14                  MR. OSBURN:  Right.  There's no 

            15       changes to size and bag limits.  We are talking 

            16       about that for trout.  I will tell you, we're 

            17       trying to get away from using the word "trophy" 

            18       because we -- it does connote that big one that 

            19       you hang on the wall.  That's not what we're 

            20       talking about.  That's not what the anglers 

            21       that have come to us to talk about the spotted 

            22       sea trout are in -- in this for.  They want to 

            23       just see the size move up a little bit to a 

            24       quality sized fish.

            25                  It is different than bass 





.
                                                                 107

             1       management.  Phil and I have talked about this.  

             2       There's -- there is room for trophy fish in a 

             3       fishery and there's room for the average size 

             4       fish.  But when the average size fish is below 

             5       a satisfactory level, I think, is where we have 

             6       valid need to make sure we're fulfilling 

             7       society's request on that.  But this particular 

             8       rule is maintaining a 15-inch size limit in 

             9       Sabine Lake at this point.  And it is still not 

            10       that large a fish.  It's only a three-year-old 

            11       fish, actually a two- to three-year-old fish 

            12       that lives for nine years.  I'm not sure I 

            13       answered your question, but...

            14                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Well, I think 

            15       you answered it exactly because what you're 

            16       looking for is quality, not trophy.  And that's 

            17       the key point. 

            18                  MR. OSBURN:  Yes, sir.

            19                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  I didn't word 

            20       the question real well.  I think that's the 

            21       answer I was looking for.

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            23       Rising.

            24                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Hal, in your 

            25       opinion, do you feel that this proposal, if we 





.
                                                                 108

             1       agree to it, will improve the overall flounder 

             2       fishery in Sabine Lake?  Because that's been 

             3       something I've seen looking at that you 

             4       proposed.

             5                  MR. OSBURN:  All things being equal, 

             6       I don't think there's any doubt it will improve 

             7       the fishery.  We have seen, when we went from a 

             8       12-inch size limit on flounder up to 14 inches 

             9       in the last three or four years, already an 

            10       improvement coast wide in our bag same catches 

            11       of small flounder.  And for Sabine Lake, which 

            12       is now folks are able to harvest that 12-inch 

            13       size limit to basically come on board with the 

            14       rest of the coast in letting the fish spawn 

            15       until it's at least 14 inches, they should see 

            16       the same benefits that we've documented for the 

            17       rest of the coast.

            18                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Well, I know 

            19       most of the discussion has been focused on 

            20       speckled trout, but I think it's important to 

            21       consider the other species that are going to be 

            22       affected by this, and I think that's one of the 

            23       areas that I've seen, just looking at what 

            24       you've presented to us.  So thank you. 

            25                  MR. OSBURN:  Thank you. 





.
                                                                 109

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

             2       Watson.

             3                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Madame 

             4       Chairman, I'd just like to make a couple of 

             5       observations.  I mean, the comment was made 

             6       that we ought to defer this to have a, you 

             7       know, comprehensive, you know, study made.  And 

             8       I feel like to what Hal has said, I think we 

             9       should have, you know, a high level of comfort 

            10       that the study has already been made.  And I 

            11       think that we have sufficient evidence to move 

            12       forward.

            13                  You know, also, the comment was made 

            14       about this is going to affect children.  You 

            15       know, I really disagree with that because I 

            16       don't believe that a child's experience is 

            17       measured necessarily by the number of fish he 

            18       takes, but the quality of the outing he has.

            19                  And also, I think that if we do have 

            20       these rules in place, that we will send a 

            21       message to the children that -- you know, the 

            22       next generation of fishermen that conservation 

            23       is important and we do have rules and we are 

            24       going to protect this resource.  And, you know, 

            25       I wholeheartedly support the staff's 





.
                                                                 110

             1       recommendation. 

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any other comments?  

             3       Commissioner Fitzsimons. 

             4                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I thought 

             5       we were on -- are we on the deer?

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Not just yet, Hal.

             7                  MR. OSBURN:  He's ready for deer. 

             8                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Oh, okay.  Thank 

             9       you, Hal.  All right.  Now we'll tackle the 

            10       deer issue.  Gary Graham?  Does the commission 

            11       have any questions of Mr. Graham?  Yes, I see 

            12       Joseph Fitzsimons. 

            13                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I just 

            14       have a comment regarding the experimental 

            15       antler reg.  I don't know if this is historic 

            16       or not, to change a commissioner's mind.  But I 

            17       was very skeptical of this reg.  And I want to 

            18       thank Bob Carroll -- he's not here.  He 

            19       literally broke a leg getting this done, I 

            20       guess.  And I was not -- I was skeptical 

            21       because I really do shy away from 

            22       micromanagement of the resource, especially we 

            23       try and follow the philosophy of giving people 

            24       the tools they need to be great 

            25       conservationists. 





.
                                                                 111

             1                  The -- as I say, I was -- they 

             2       changed my mind and they did it through 

             3       perseverance and through hard work and 

             4       impressing me with an absolute dedication to 

             5       the resource, that -- the sportsmen club, 

             6       Mr. Glasscock and the TOMA, I'm just -- I have 

             7       to tell you, my hat's off to you.

             8                  And today, I think credit should be 

             9       given to those that worked on the solution 

            10       rather than the critics, and I was one of them.  

            11       Thank you for your work. 

            12                  MR. GRAHAM:  Thank you, 

            13       Commissioner.  I think it also illustrates that 

            14       the power of research and good data.  This is 

            15       the most data-rich proposal I've had the 

            16       privilege of addressing.  And it always makes 

            17       it -- makes me have a lot more confidence when 

            18       I have an adequate database to make these types 

            19       of decisions.  So I appreciate, too, the work 

            20       of the staff.

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Gary.  

            22       Are there any -- whoopsie daisy, Gary.  

            23       Commissioner Ramos has a question. 

            24                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Well, I think 

            25       you need to be recognized because that's -- 





.
                                                                 112

             1       we're really in the cutting edge.  I don't know 

             2       if any other state is doing what we're doing, 

             3       and you and your staff need to be commended for 

             4       that.  But more importantly, and in line with 

             5       that, we need to educate the public in being 

             6       able to recognize the type of deer that are 

             7       legal or illegal.  And I'm very confident that 

             8       you've already looked at that and will have 

             9       programs where the general public can be 

            10       educated.  Because I can see where an 

            11       uneducated person might not be able to judge 

            12       the deer properly.  But I think that's 

            13       intrinsic with this new proposal.  Thank you. 

            14                  MR. GRAHAM:  Very good comment.  And 

            15       the staff, both in wildlife and law 

            16       enforcement, will approach that responsibility 

            17       just as enthusiastically as they have with 

            18       gathering the data that's needed to make this 

            19       decision.  Education is very important.  Thank 

            20       you. 

            21                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Thank you. 

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any more 

            23       questions from the Commission? 

            24                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Move approval of 

            25       the recommendation. 





.
                                                                 113

             1                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second. 

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion by 

             3       Commissioner Angelo, a second by Commissioner 

             4       Watson.  All in favor say aye. 

             5                  ("Aye.")

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

             7       Hearing none, motion carries. 

             8                  (Motion passes.)

             9       "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 

            10       the 2002-2003 Statewide Hunting and Fishing 

            11       Proclamation (located at Exhibit A), with 

            12       changes to the proposal in the February 22, 

            13       2002, issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg 

            14       1266)."

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Before moving on to 

            16       Item No. 7, I want to recognize the class of 

            17       game warden cadets at the back of the room.  We 

            18       have 38 cadets initiated the class on March the 

            19       1st, and they will be graduating in August.  

            20       Welcome aboard.  We're glad to have you here. 

            21                  (Applause.)

            22                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Madame 

            23       Chairman, I wonder if Mr. Stinebaugh could send 

            24       us the results of the exam they're given on 

            25       these new regulations we just passed after it's 





.
                                                                 114

             1       over.  My expectations of this group.

             2        AGENDA ITEM NO. 7:  ACTION - STATEWIDE OYSTER 

             3               FISHERY PROCLAMATION/RULE REVIEW

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 7 

             5       is an action item, Statewide Oyster Fishery 

             6       Proclamation/Rule Review.  Mr. Riechers, will 

             7       you please make your presentation.

             8                  MR. RIECHERS:  Madame Chairman, 

             9       Commissioners, my name is Robin Riechers.  I am 

            10       the management director of coastal fisheries 

            11       division.  The item before you today is the 

            12       mandated rules of Chapter 58, Subchapter A of 

            13       the Oyster Fishery Proclamation.  This review 

            14       is required by Government Code, Section 

            15       2001.039, which requires an agency to complete 

            16       a review every four years of each proclamation.  

            17       The notice of review was published in the Texas 

            18       Register on February 22nd, 2002.

            19                  As you remember at your January 

            20       meeting, given -- you recently made changes to 

            21       this chapter regarding oyster leases.  In 

            22       addition to that, we also made some 

            23       clarifications of existing language at that 

            24       time, just some cleanup items.  With those 

            25       changes just most recently being made, as well 





.
                                                                 115

             1       as the continued existence of the oyster 

             2       fishery in both the lease program and the 

             3       public oyster reef fishery, we certainly see 

             4       the need for this chapter to continue to exist.  

             5       And we would recommend at this time that you 

             6       consider readoption of Chapter 58, Subchapter 

             7       A, without any changes. 

             8                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, 

             9       Mr. Riecher.  Is there any discussion from the 

            10       Commission?  There's no one signed up to speak, 

            11       so could I have a motion on this item? 

            12                  COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Move approval.

            13                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have a 

            14       second?

            15                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second. 

            16                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion by 

            17       Commissioner Avila, a second by Commissioner 

            18       Ramos.  All in favor please say aye. 

            19                  ("Aye.")

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            21       Hearing none, motion carries.  

            22                  (Motion passes.)

            23       "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission 

            24       readopts all sections within 31 TAC Chapter 58 

            25       Subchapter A."





.
                                                                 116

             1        AGENDA ITEM NO. 8:  ACTION - LICENSE FEES FOR 

             2                     COMMERCIAL FISHERIES

             3                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Item No. 8 is an 

             4       action item, License Fees for Commercial 

             5       Fisheries.  Ms. Whittenton, will you please 

             6       make your presentation. 

             7                  MS. WHITTENTON:  Thank you, Madame 

             8       Chairman, Commissioners.  My name is Suzy 

             9       Whittenton, chief financial officer.  This item 

            10       was proposed at the January commission meeting 

            11       and is up for adoption today.  The proposal 

            12       originated from a state auditor's office report 

            13       published in December 2000 that determined that 

            14       Parks and Wildlife did not receive enough 

            15       revenue in the commercial fishery programs to 

            16       recoup the cost of program management.  That 

            17       report became the basis for a legislative 

            18       appropriations rider last session.  This rider 

            19       states that it is the intent of the Legislature 

            20       that Parks and Wildlife adjust rates charged 

            21       for licenses in each commercial fishery program 

            22       accordingly to provide funds necessary to 

            23       recoup costs associated with the management of 

            24       the program.  And in making the fee 

            25       determination, the department should consider 





.
                                                                 117

             1       the commercial value of the license and the 

             2       amount needed to recoup department costs.

             3                  In order to reach complete cost 

             4       recovery, as the state auditor's report 

             5       suggested, we would have to increase fees by 

             6       over a hundred percent, and that would be in 

             7       addition to fee increases that we made last 

             8       year. 

             9                  The staff has been concerned about 

            10       the socioeconomic disruptions to the coastal 

            11       communities from large fee increases.  So as a 

            12       first step toward balancing the interest of the 

            13       State and the industries, a 20 percent fee 

            14       increase was recommended.  This action is 

            15       expected to generate approximately $663,000.

            16                  The proposal was published in the 

            17       March 1st issue of the Texas Register and 

            18       public hearings were held across the state.  We 

            19       also took in public comment through our 

            20       website.  Here is a summary of our public -- of 

            21       the public comment received.  62 in favor.  

            22       These are not -- in most cases -- or in all 

            23       vases were not people from the industry.  24 

            24       against and 44 with no opinion.

            25                  The staff would suggest a -- an 





.
                                                                 118

             1       amendment to the rules associated with 

             2       transfers of licenses to heirs upon the death 

             3       of the original licensee.  The current rules 

             4       require that the full license fee be paid by 

             5       the heir even though the original licensee has 

             6       already paid that fee.  So we're proposing to 

             7       clarify the rules to allow us to charge just a 

             8       $10 transfer fee in those cases.

             9                  And the staff recommendation is for 

            10       the following, a motion to be adopted.  The 

            11       Texas Parks and Wildlife Department adopts 

            12       amendments to 31 TAC Chapter 53.7 concerning 

            13       commercial fishing licenses -- licenses and 

            14       tags and in 31 TAC Chapter 53.7 concerning 

            15       business licenses and permits, with changes to 

            16       text as published in the March 1st, 2002 issue 

            17       of the Texas Register. 

            18                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Does the 

            19       Commission have any questions for Suzy?  Being 

            20       none, we have a number of folks in the audience 

            21       that would like to comment.  And we'll start 

            22       with Richard Moore, and Ronald Hornbeck will be 

            23       next. 

            24                  MR. MOORE:  Thank you, 

            25       Commissioners, for this time.  After looking 





.
                                                                 119

             1       over the Bomer report, there was a lot of 

             2       questions that were -- arose rather than 

             3       answered.  I would wish that this Commission 

             4       could look -- take a time out and look at 

             5       the -- to review everything that was found in 

             6       that report. 

             7                  Last year, we had a pretty 

             8       significant increase in our license.  We're 

             9       going to have another 20 percent increase in 

            10       our license.  Each individual license is not 

            11       that great.  But some of these people have to 

            12       buy eight licenses, and that gets significant.  

            13       We're already on a depressed market right now.  

            14       And it's just a real hard time. 

            15                  So I'm going to ask you if you would 

            16       consider tabling this until the industry, with 

            17       Parks and Wildlife, can go to the 

            18       Appropriations Committee and say, "Let's wait 

            19       until all the facts are in."  This report has 

            20       opened up a lot of questions to what has been 

            21       going on with Parks and Wildlife and how they 

            22       spent their money.  And I'd like to see this 

            23       cleared up before we go ahead and increase this 

            24       fee.

            25                  The only license increases are on 





.
                                                                 120

             1       commercial fisheries.  There's a lot of other 

             2       people involved with Parks and Wildlife.  You 

             3       know, but we are the only ones that's having an 

             4       increase in fees, and I don't think this is 

             5       quite right.  So I'm asking if you would just 

             6       consider tabling this until we have a time to 

             7       get more information, until everything else is 

             8       more clear. 

             9                  Like I said, at this time, the 

            10       domestic fishery is in hard times because of 

            11       the imports.  The freezers are full, we don't 

            12       really have a market for a product right now.  

            13       And the market is so depressed.  This is not a 

            14       good time to be hitting these people with 

            15       another raise.  That would be a 78 percent 

            16       increase in our license in the last two 

            17       licensing periods.  That's pretty significant.  

            18       And I don't believe $600,000 that you're going 

            19       to get it from these commercial fishermen is 

            20       going to solve all your financial problems.  So 

            21       I'd like for you to just think about it and see 

            22       if the -- with the industry and Parks and 

            23       Wildlife, go back to the Appropriations 

            24       Committee when everything has come to light on 

            25       this report. 





.
                                                                 121

             1                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Mr. Moore, I 

             2       appreciate your comments.  And I think the 

             3       Commission, obviously, and the staff share your 

             4       and the industry's concern about the current 

             5       profitability.  But we are mandated by the 

             6       Legislature to make the fee increases.  And, in 

             7       fact, the mandate was actually to make a 

             8       significantly larger increase, which would have 

             9       been the amount necessary to recover the cost 

            10       associated with regulating and supervising the 

            11       industry. 

            12                  So the Commission is doing the 

            13       minimum, really, that we feel we're required to 

            14       do.  Certainly I don't think there would be any 

            15       problem in going back to the Legislature.  I 

            16       think it's something that you-all certainly 

            17       ought to pursue.

            18                  MR. MOORE:  The legislation mandated 

            19       that you would raise commercial fishing 

            20       license.  Correct? 

            21                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  That is correct.

            22                  MR. MOORE:  That's what I 

            23       understood.

            24                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  That is correct.

            25                  MR. MOORE:  Commercial fishing 





.
                                                                 122

             1       license is one thing.

             2                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Commercial 

             3       licenses, I believe.  It wasn't -- I don't 

             4       know --

             5                  MR. MOORE:  Well, in the report it 

             6       said "commercial fishing licenses and oyster 

             7       leaseholders."

             8                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Right.

             9                  MR. MOORE:  Okay.  Fishing license 

            10       is one thing, business license is another.  And 

            11       you've expanded on more, and I hadn't seen -- 

            12       and I apologize, I have not seen the 

            13       appropriation's wording.  But in his report, it 

            14       said, "commercial fishing license and oyster 

            15       lease fees."  You've expanded this to take in 

            16       business license.  Commercial fishing license, 

            17       if -- you buy a license for your boat to fish, 

            18       and then you buy a captain's license for 

            19       yourself.  This is one thing.  But then you get 

            20       into all the other business license that you 

            21       have to have.  And I didn't see in the report 

            22       where it mentioned that. 

            23                  Like I said, some of these fees are 

            24       very significant.  These are going to go up as 

            25       much as $800 on some people.  That's not a 





.
                                                                 123

             1       little fee.  A boat license is one thing.  

             2       You're talking about 40 something dollars.  

             3       That's not going to make or break anybody.  But 

             4       on the same token, that $600,000 that that's 

             5       going to generate is not going to solve your 

             6       problems.  But you said mandated by the 

             7       Appropriations Committee, the LBB or whatever 

             8       it's called? 

             9                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  The Legislature. 

            10                  MR. MOORE:  But did they have all 

            11       the information?  Did they have the correct 

            12       information?  And this is all I'm asking for.  

            13       It's time that they get the right information. 

            14       And if they feel the same way, we'll move 

            15       forward on it.  I'm asking for your help, with 

            16       the staff and with the industry, to go back to 

            17       the Appropriations Committee and says, "Let's 

            18       rethink this," when all the information that is 

            19       available.  That's what I'm asking for. 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  Are 

            21       there any further questions of Mr. Moore? 

            22                  Ronald Hornbeck and James Davenport. 

            23                  MR. HORNBECK;  Ronnie Hornbeck.  

            24       Thank you for this opportunity.  I'm in the 

            25       seafood business.  In order for me to survive 





.
                                                                 124

             1       in the seafood business, I have to be into the 

             2       bait end of it, the wholesale, the retail, the 

             3       table, the live croakers and all in order to 

             4       survive.

             5                  I feel like the redheaded stepchild 

             6       who is getting beat upon here.  Last year, we 

             7       had a hundred dollar increase on our license.  

             8       Between the two increases, it raised my license 

             9       fees $840.  At the same time, we have less 

            10       opportunities, in my business, of getting fresh 

            11       Texas seafood.  The State is crying they do not 

            12       want farm-raised, they are not wanting imported 

            13       seafood.  With the current laws that exist 

            14       today, I can't get the products when I need 

            15       them.  The bays are closed.  The Gulf is closed 

            16       down.  Yet my fees are going up.  I don't know 

            17       how that the industry can survive or I, as a 

            18       businessman, can survive.  And with these 

            19       increases that was -- as you're talking about 

            20       here that was came forth in January, now on 

            21       March 29th on this Bomer's report completely 

            22       diminishes what was brought forth forward. 

            23                  Parks and Wildlife Department has 

            24       some fine people and doing a fine job.  And I 

            25       believe if you will go along with Mr. Moore and 





.
                                                                 125

             1       let the industry work with the legislators and 

             2       let us work with the department in trying to 

             3       smooth out some of these kinks in the road 

             4       where that we're not able to operate.  And yet 

             5       our fees are going up and up.  And I would ask 

             6       the Commission here today to table this until 

             7       such time that we can go in and find out what 

             8       is the real problem and why hasn't this 

             9       money -- there's so many gray areas of what 

            10       happened to the money.  If this money would -- 

            11       why it has not been funneled into the right 

            12       departments where it should be put into.  I 

            13       thank you.  Any questions? 

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            15       questions? 

            16                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Madame Chairman, 

            17       as you just commented there on the side, I 

            18       think for the benefit of these gentlemen, we 

            19       need to have Suzy come back up and explain what 

            20       exactly the mandate was from the Legislature 

            21       and why we're in this position.  Because the 

            22       points they're raising are certainly 

            23       legitimate, but I'm not sure how much leeway we 

            24       have.  And maybe you can help us in explaining 

            25       that. 





.
                                                                 126

             1                  MS. WHITTENTON:  Maybe I can put it 

             2       back up there, the -- well, I guess I can't.  

             3       The exact wording of that rider said that, "We 

             4       shall adjust rates for licenses in each 

             5       commercial fishery program."  I think it reads 

             6       pretty clearly that these -- all of these 

             7       licenses and permits fall under that category 

             8       of commercial fishery programs. 

             9                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Would this 

            10       proposed increase do it any more than it fully 

            11       cost in your judgment? 

            12                  MS. WHITTENTON:  We are actually not 

            13       getting to full cost recovery.

            14                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  So we're 

            15       coming in under that even in --

            16                  MS. WHITTENTON:  Significantly under 

            17       that, yeah.

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Ramos? 

            19                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  The only 

            20       comment that I have is, it seems to me with the 

            21       word "shall" we really don't have any 

            22       discretion.  And to some extent, we're not even 

            23       going the full hundred percent as pointed out 

            24       earlier.  So 20 percent would be like the 

            25       minimum balance between everyone. 





.
                                                                 127

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I can assure the 

             2       people here that we looked -- all looked very 

             3       closely at this when we were studying the whole 

             4       area of fee increases.  And I think it was 

             5       pretty clear to the Commission that our hands 

             6       were pretty much tied; that we did what we were 

             7       required to do here.  But I encourage you to go 

             8       talk to your legislators.

             9                  Thank you, Suzy.  Any further 

            10       questions?  Commissioner Watson? 

            11                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  No.  I totally 

            12       support that.  I feel like that -- you know, I 

            13       think in the -- in the effort to demonstrate 

            14       the cooperation that we want to have as 

            15       reflected in the things we want to do with 

            16       Mr. Bowmer's report -- I mean, I think 20 

            17       percent is just -- you know, I mean, that, to 

            18       me, is very minimal, you know, to comply with 

            19       the spirit of rider Number 22. 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            21       Fitzsimons.

            22                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I would 

            23       agree with Commissioner Ramos, that it's hard 

            24       to read the word "shall" any other way.  And a 

            25       suggestion that we table it, although it sounds 





.
                                                                 128

             1       benign, is just merely ignoring the mandate of 

             2       the Legislature.  And I don't believe we can do 

             3       that.  Thank you. 

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  We have 

             5       Wesley Blevins -- or James Davenport, are you 

             6       up again?  And then Wesley Blevins. 

             7                  MR. DAVENPORT:  Madame Chairman, 

             8       Commissioners -- as up on this board, y'all 

             9       kind of blew my train of thought here.  But it 

            10       also said there necessary to recoup costs.  

            11       We're not the only people on this end as 

            12       commercial.  There's a lot of other people out 

            13       on these waters.  I think what we're concerned 


            14       about is, why is it all coming back on just the 

            15       commercial?  We're not the only people out 

            16       there on this water.  We're not the only people 

            17       out there on this water making money.  This 

            18       says "As necessary."  Maybe that's what we need 

            19       to ask you.  Is this necessary, to put this all 

            20       on the commercial people?  Maybe we need to get 

            21       back together and see who else needs to be 

            22       brought into this, just besides the -- 

            23       commercial people.  I agree with you, sir.  20 

            24       percent, I'm going to pay it.  I chose to do 

            25       this all my life.  I've been doing it 35 years 





.
                                                                 129

             1       and I'm probably going to die out there, I 

             2       guess.  So I'm going to do it. 

             3                  But, please, please consider not 

             4       just us all the time.  You've got to know that 

             5       there's more things out there besides the 

             6       commercial, that is making money.  I appreciate 

             7       your time.  I had more, but no sense saying it 

             8       because you already said what -- and I promise 

             9       you our legislators are going to hear about 

            10       this.  There will be no doubt about it.  They 

            11       know us very well up there.

            12                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, 

            13       Mr. Davenport. 

            14                  MR. DAVENPORT:  Thank you. 

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  After Mr. Blevins, 

            16       we have Walter Zimmerman. 

            17                  MR. BLEVINS:  Madame Chairman, my 

            18       name is Wesley Blevins.  I'm a representative 

            19       of Calhoun County Shrimpers.  And everybody has 

            20       pretty well said the same thing over and -- I 

            21       mean, it all boils down to the same thing.  We 

            22       just got hit with a hundred dollar increase 

            23       last year.  And I would ask that y'all would 

            24       table this until we can go before legislation, 

            25       because -- let me explain why.  I read part of 





.
                                                                 130

             1       the Bomer report, too.  And there is a great 

             2       deal here that's not all being brought ought.  

             3       There is some areas that Parks and Wildlife is 

             4       not telling over at the Capitol building the 

             5       legislators and the -- over there, the senators 

             6       and the representatives the whole story.  And I 

             7       beg her difference on the statewide input into 

             8       this.  I think there was only two meetings 

             9       held, and there was none of us down in my area 

            10       even got to make no comments or nothing on 

            11       this.  The next thing we know, we ain't had but 

            12       a few days here, it was in the Texas Registry.  

            13       That's the first that we heard of it.  And, 

            14       see, this went in as a rider on a bill over 

            15       there in Austin.  And a lot of the 

            16       representatives and the senators didn't even 

            17       really know what they were agreeing to because 

            18       I've been over to the Capitol and I've talked 

            19       to some of them.  And Mr. Seaman's office said 

            20       that they was going to talk to y'all but didn't 

            21       think it was going to do no good but it's been 

            22       mandated, like you said. 

            23                  But there's some areas there that 

            24       there's a lack of communication between Parks 

            25       and Wildlife and over there.  And there 





.
                                                                 131

             1       shouldn't be nowadays because all Parks and 

             2       Wildlife has to do is hit a button on the 

             3       computer and they can send it to everybody over 

             4       at the Capitol building, but they don't choose 

             5       to do this every time.  And I would appreciate 

             6       it if y'all would just table it and give us a 

             7       chance to go before legislation.  Because, like 

             8       they said, it's a terrible increase on me, $100 

             9       on my bait license, $100 on my oyster license, 

            10       $100 on my bay license, $100 on my fin fish 

            11       license, $100 on my Gulf license.  And it just 

            12       goes on and on and on.  And I just can't afford 

            13       it.  All I'm trying to do is make a living.  

            14       And, like I said, we went $100 on them license 

            15       last year.  And I beg for y'all's time to give 

            16       us a little bit of time.  And, like I said, 

            17       there was no input. 

            18                  And one other thing, a while ago I 

            19       didn't get around to all of it on the crab 

            20       traps, I thought that we had it understood that 

            21       all the buoys was supposed to be white on crab 

            22       traps, yellow on trout lines.  Why does the bay 

            23       look like a rainbow?  Thank you for your time. 

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Walter Zimmerman? 

            25                  MR. BLEVINS:  I forgot to ask, any 





.
                                                                 132

             1       questions? 

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Blevins, we 

             3       appreciate your frustration.  Again --

             4                  MR. BLEVINS:  I just can't hardly 

             5       help myself.  I mean, that's a lot of money to 

             6       me. 

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  We appreciate your 

             8       frustration.  But I believe it is clear to the 

             9       Commission that in this instance we have been 

            10       mandated to raise these, and that we really 

            11       don't have any choice here.  But I would 

            12       suggest that you continue to talk to staff and 

            13       to be in contact with your Legislature to try 

            14       to do something. 

            15                  MR. BLEVINS:  Well, you see where it 

            16       goes with staff because they didn't even 

            17       acknowledge my emails that I sent to them and 

            18       put into the paper to quit destroying trout 

            19       lines and quit floating crab traps.  Please do 

            20       it.  I asked them nice.  Please. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you. 

            22                  MR. ZIMMERMAN:  Thank you, Madame 

            23       Chairman and members of the Commission for the 

            24       opportunity to comment on the proposed license 

            25       fees for commercial fisheries at the Commission 





.
                                                                 133

             1       today.  My name is Walter Zimmerman.  I live in 

             2       Port Isabel, Texas.  I've been in the shrimp 

             3       business since 1953.  I have shore facilities 

             4       in Palacios, Port Isabel, and Brownsville.  I 

             5       own 23 Gulf shrimp boats.  I have two railways.  

             6       I have fuel facilities.  I'm a part interest in 

             7       a processing house in Port Isabel.  You have 

             8       heard this just -- the shrimp industry this 

             9       year is in serious trouble.  We have too many 

            10       imports, the Chinese, the Vietnamese, 

            11       everywhere, it's just pouring in.  There is no 

            12       market.  That's the way supply and demand goes.  

            13       I haven't seen this in a long time.  I don't 

            14       know -- we really don't know which way we're 

            15       heading.  Because when you don't have a market, 

            16       it's bad.  In England, European countries have 

            17       abandoned -- all the shrimp that was coming in 

            18       from China and from all other places, they have 

            19       been -- the pond-raised shrimp, they're feeding 

            20       them antibiotics and it's leaving a residue 

            21       that can cause cancer.  Europe is kicking them 

            22       out and a lot of it is flooding this way.  When 

            23       you get this kind of public at this, it's bad, 

            24       too, because people might not eat shrimp.

            25                  Anyway, I currently serve as your 





.
                                                                 134

             1       chairman for the Parks and Wildlife Shrimp 

             2       Advisory Panel and I'm a member of the Texas 

             3       Shrimp Association and a director, and I'm also 

             4       your appointee from Texas -- for the Shrimp 

             5       Advisory Panel for the Gulf of Mexico 

             6       Management Council. 

             7                  I am opposed to your fee for several 

             8       reasons.  One is -- that hasn't been mentioned 

             9       is that you are going to -- there is a joint 

            10       enforcement agreement that has come up from the 

            11       federal government.  And you already have 

            12       received about a million dollars for 

            13       enforcement to work jointly.  You haven't -- 

            14       there's supposed to be -- if it goes through -- 

            15       and it's not through yet.  But if it does go 

            16       through, it's a $17 million program and Texas 

            17       will receive $4.5 million.  That ought to be -- 

            18       that has not been brought up today.  And rather 

            19       than duplicate what everybody else has said, 

            20       you need to consider this.  And if you do have 

            21       that coming, -- one other item that I'd like to 

            22       add --

            23                  MR. COOK:  Mr. Zimmerman, your time 

            24       is up, sir.

            25                  MR. ZIMMERMAN:  All right.





.
                                                                 135

             1                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Madame Chairman, 

             2       could you extend his time? 

             3                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Yes.  

             4       Mr. Zimmerman, why don't you finish what you 

             5       have to say, but don't take too long.

             6                  MR. ZIMMERMAN:  This year we're not 

             7       going to have the 200-mile closure.  We have 

             8       elected not to do that because there's so many 

             9       boats coming from Georgia, all over the 

            10       world -- or all over the states to our waters 

            11       to produce -- to catch the shrimp.  We like to 

            12       catch large shrimp.  We like the 200-mile 

            13       closure.  But we've got so much competition and 

            14       we cannot get the other states to close.  We 

            15       really prefer a Gulf closure. 

            16                  There may be something in the move 

            17       now because all the other states now are asking 

            18       the national marine fisheries to open up the 

            19       hearing process again because they want our 

            20       200-mile closure because they make money off 

            21       it.  But it still doesn't help us in this 

            22       industry.  We sacrifice, we close.  When you 

            23       close the waters, of course, we all have to go 

            24       to Louisiana. 

            25                  But anyway, there's a lot of new 





.
                                                                 136

             1       changes going on, and I don't know.  But the 20 

             2       percent now is not bad, but 20 percent in five 

             3       years will change my -- just on my Gulf boat, 

             4       I'll be paying from $8,625, in five more years 

             5       I'll be paying $21,500.  That's a lot of money.  

             6       And if you can, incorporate the federal.  We do 

             7       want enforcement.  Sitting down with -- I want 

             8       to visit with him a little bit.  We need it bad 

             9       in the Gulf, very bad.  So anything you can do 

            10       to help us, I'd appreciate it.  Thank you.

            11                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  Muriel 

            12       Tipps? 

            13                  MS. TIPPS:  Madame Chairman, 

            14       Commissioners, I have read the SAO report in 

            15       its entirety, and I do know that when they say 

            16       "shall," you will.  Thank you for this 

            17       opportunity to give public testimony on behalf 

            18       of the commercial fishermen in my area.  We 

            19       have watched the progress of these proceedings 

            20       while also monitoring the various audits that 

            21       have been conducted within your agencies.  As 

            22       noted by the report, this agency has many 

            23       problems they need to address.  Most disturbing 

            24       is the budget overview that is so vague in 

            25       regard to monies spent in the shrimp fishery.  





.
                                                                 137

             1       It is hard to determine anything.  One 

             2       disturbing factor is that in the capital 

             3       program, our commercial shrimping license fees 

             4       are used on things that aren't even related to 

             5       our industry.  For instance, the sinking of the 

             6       TEXAS CLIPPER to create an artificial reef, 

             7       major repairs at the Sea Center Rockport, 

             8       GCCA/CPL, and Dickinson.  Are we paying for 

             9       everything?  How they arrived at the cost 

            10       recovery of $9 million is based alone on 

            11       speculation and comments by staff rather than 

            12       good accurate data.  There is no way the shrimp 

            13       industry has had that kind of attention other 

            14       than the regulation package last year.  Other 

            15       than a series of outreach meetings, there has 

            16       been very little involvement in the field by 

            17       any coastal fisheries staff.  We also had the 

            18       limited entry programs in finfish and crab.  Is 

            19       the shrimper responsible for this also?  It is 

            20       disturbing that the department does not 

            21       differentiate between commercial and 

            22       recreational fishery costs.  You continually 

            23       raise our fees, but not necessarily theirs.  As 

            24       far as the field data goes, when sampling gear 

            25       is used, it is for the benefit of all public 





.
                                                                 138

             1       users as well as nonconsumptive users.  This 

             2       cost should be shared by all users, not just 

             3       the commercial shrimpers.  The business 

             4       practices evaluation done by Mr. Bomer was 

             5       astonishing.  So much waste, how in the world 

             6       can you pin all this neglect and inefficiency 

             7       on the few commercial fishermen left in this 

             8       state year after year.  The working man does 

             9       not have a chance with management like this.

            10                  Much of the cost problems are in the 

            11       oyster lease program, not the shrimping 

            12       industry.  The oyster committee has worked hard 

            13       to renegotiate these leases and will more than 

            14       double the revenue.  Also, let it be known that 

            15       the oyster fisherman pays $1 a barrel of 

            16       oysters to the State.  The payment -- the 

            17       fishermen are paying this resource to the State 

            18       Health Department.  This amount paid to the 

            19       State agency is staggering each year.  Why 

            20       hasn't the legislative Appropriations Committee 

            21       seen that a portion of this money is allocated 

            22       to coastal fisheries for administration 

            23       management of the oyster leases?  When licenses 

            24       or permits are levied, isn't it supposed to be 

            25       to regulate the industry in which it was 





.
                                                                 139

             1       intended?  This certainly does not seem to be 

             2       the case at all. 

             3                  We offer the following suggestions: 

             4       formulate budgets for each fisheries left in 

             5       our states in the commercial sector.  These 

             6       would include separate line item budgets for 

             7       management of oyster leases, fishing, 

             8       crabbing -- finfishing, crabbing, shrimping, 

             9       bait shrimp, and Gulf.  The recreational 

            10       industry should include the bay cabins, the 

            11       artificial reefs, the hatcheries for sport 

            12       fishing, and the sea centers for tourists.  

            13       During times of heavy restructuring, solicit 

            14       grants from federal sources and others to 

            15       offset the cost from the working Texans, 

            16       whether they be commercial or recreational.  

            17       Sitting at the management table is expensive.  

            18       Increasingly, much of your staff time and the 

            19       legislator is taken by nonprofit tax-free 

            20       conservation groups.  Why aren't they paying 

            21       their fair share?  They demand a place at the 

            22       management table and pay for nothing and create 

            23       havoc much of the time which lengthens the 

            24       process.  These groups are popping up 

            25       everywhere.  Texas Parks and Wildlife should 





.
                                                                 140

             1       set some kind of criteria for these people to 

             2       be involved.  They have ridden the free wagon 

             3       for too long.  What fee or license can we 

             4       charge them to use the public servants of this 

             5       State and tie up the Legislature year after 

             6       year.  Where is --

             7                  MR. COOK:  Mrs. Tipps, time is up. 

             8                  MS. TIPPS:  And I will turn in this 

             9       letter.  You already have it from Mr. Uher.  

            10       And this will raise my license fees $1200.  

            11       Thank you.

            12                  MR. COOK:  Thank you, Ms. Tipps.  Do 

            13       we have any questions? 

            14                  Are there any comments from the 

            15       Commission on this item?  Is there a motion on 

            16       this item? 

            17                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  So moved.

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion by 

            19       Commissioner Watson.  Do I have a second?

            20                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Second.

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Second by 

            22       Commissioner Rising.  All in favor, please say 

            23       aye. 

            24                  ("Aye.")

            25                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  





.
                                                                 141

             1       Hearing none, motion carries.  

             2                   (Motion passes.)

             3       "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 

             4       amendments to 31 TAC 53.6 concerning Commercial 

             5       Fishing Licenses and Tags, and 31 TAC 53.7 

             6       concerning Business License and Permits, with 

             7       changes to text as published in the March 1, 

             8       2002 issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg 

             9       1461)."

            10       AGENDA ITEM NO. 9:  ACTION - AMENDMENTS TO THE 

            11        PUBLIC LANDS PROCLAMATION ESTABLISHMENT OF AN 

            12       OPEN SEASON ON PUBLIC LANDS 2002-2003 PROPOSED 

            13              HUNTING ACTIVITIES ON STATE PARKS

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 8 

            15       is an action item, License Fee -- excuse me, 

            16       excuse me.  Action Item No. 9, Public Lands 

            17       Proclamation.  Mr. Kothmann.

            18                  MR. KOTHMANN:  Madame Chairman, 

            19       members of the Commission, my name is Herb 

            20       Kothmann.  I'm the director of public hunts.  

            21       This presentation concerns three items: 

            22       amendments to the Public Lands Proclamation, 

            23       the public hunts on the state parks, and 

            24       establishment of open hunting season on the 

            25       public hunting lands. 





.
                                                                 142

             1                  The changes proposed in the Public 

             2       Lands Proclamation to remove duplicate 

             3       regulations concerning public hunting fees.  

             4       Presently they appear in both the public lands 

             5       proclamation and our public fees proclamation.  

             6       Therefore, the staff is requesting that 

             7       references to fee amounts be removed from the 

             8       Public Lands Proclamation. 

             9                  A second proposed change would 

            10       remove the provision for hunting small game on 

            11       five U.S. Forest Service wildlife management 

            12       areas that are administered under this agency 

            13       for public hunting, remove that provision for 

            14       public hunting under the $10 permit.  On our 

            15       other 252 units that allow hunting by annual 

            16       permit, the $40 permit is required.  We 

            17       initially implemented the $10 permit on the 

            18       Forest Service areas at their request because 

            19       they felt they had a large number of people 

            20       that just hunted squirrel and didn't want them 

            21       to have to purchase the $40 permit.  Since that 

            22       has been in place now for about five or six 

            23       years, the sale of the permits has still stayed 

            24       at about 2000 years -- I mean, 2000 permits 

            25       through the 15-year history of the program.  





.
                                                                 143

             1       Our survey of the permittees indicate that 

             2       about 500 people that purchase this $10 permit 

             3       actually hunt under it.  And unfortunately, a 

             4       bunch of that hunting activity happens on 

             5       places where it is not authorized; it's 

             6       confusing to the permittees.  Therefore, we're 

             7       recommending that the $10 permit be made 

             8       strictly a nonconsumptive permit and that all 

             9       adults who hunt under an annual permit have the 

            10       $40 permit.  I remind you that all youth under 

            11       17 do not have to have their own public hunting 

            12       permit.  They can hunt free under the 

            13       supervision of an adult that does have the $40 

            14       permit.

            15                  The state park hunt proposals, staff 

            16       recommends public hunts on 43 units of the 

            17       state park during the 2002-2003 season.  All of 

            18       these 43 units are among the 45 units which the 

            19       commission approved for public hunts last year.  

            20       The remaining two units are Arroyo-Colorado, 

            21       which has since been transferred to the 

            22       Wildlife Division and will be hunted as a 

            23       wildlife management area this fall, and the 

            24       Dinosaur Valley State Park on which our field 

            25       staff have determined this year they are not 





.
                                                                 144

             1       recommending a public hunt.

             2                  I have a series of three slides here 

             3       that give the names of the actual 43 parks 

             4       proposed for hunts.  They are shown at 

             5       Exhibit B of your agenda item in more detail, 

             6       showing the exact legal species, the type of 

             7       public hunting permit required, the number of 

             8       hunter positions to be offered, the hunt dates, 

             9       and restrictions on general visitation that 

            10       would result if these hunts were implemented. 

            11                  The second slide indicates 17 of 

            12       these parks.  The proposals for these hunts 

            13       have been posted on our department's Web page 

            14       for more than a month.  They were presented at 

            15       22 public hearings around the state.  And our 

            16       comments as of this morning were, 25 comments 

            17       received; 22 supporting the proposed park hunts 

            18       and three in opposition.

            19                  The proposed hunts would result in 

            20       approximately 2,043 drawn hunter positions 

            21       being made available to the public.  This is 

            22       down slightly from last year.  But roughly it 

            23       would be a rerun of what we offered this past 

            24       year.

            25                  An open hunting season on our public 





.
                                                                 145

             1       hunting land -- and I'm not just speaking about 

             2       state parks here.  It's also our wildlife 

             3       management areas and our leased lands for 

             4       public hunting.  An open season must be 

             5       established in order for those public hunts to 

             6       be conducted.  In Chapter 62 and 81 of our 

             7       Parks and Wildlife Code gives this Commission 

             8       authority to establish an open season for 

             9       hunting on these public hunting lands.

            10                  Therefore, Madame Chairman, staff is 

            11       recommending the Commission adopt the following 

            12       three-part motion.  And I will try to read 

            13       correctly this rather wordy motion.  The first 

            14       portion is: The Parks and Wildlife Commission 

            15       adopts amendments to the 31 TAC 53.5, 

            16       concerning public hunting and fishing permits 

            17       and fees and 65.191, 65.193, and 65.194, 

            18       concerning the Public Lands Proclamation, with 

            19       changes to the proposed text as published in 

            20       the February 22, 2002 issue of Texas Register.  

            21       That is located at Exhibit A.  Part 2, the 

            22       Texas Parks and Wildlife Department authorizes 

            23       the hunting activities designated in Exhibit B 

            24       to be conducted on the listed units of the 

            25       state park system.  And part 3 of that motion 





.
                                                                 146

             1       would be, the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

             2       Commission authorizes an open hunting season on 

             3       public hunting lands to run from September 1, 

             4       2002 to August 31, 2003. 

             5                  Madame Chairman, that concludes my 

             6       presentation.  Do you have any questions? 

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

             8       questions of Mr. Kothmann from the Commission? 

             9                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I have 

            10       one. 

            11                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            12       Fitzsimons. 

            13                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Herb, do 

            14       you have any -- and I'm sorry to pop you with 

            15       this question.  But do you have any idea the 

            16       number of hunter days made available by the 

            17       hunting in state parks and WMAs? 

            18                  MR. KOTHMANN:  Hunter days? 

            19                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Or however 

            20       you measure is it. 

            21                  MR. KOTHMANN:  I do have a 

            22       measurement here.  For example, if you take the 

            23       43 state parks -- I was trying to calculate the 

            24       impact upon general visitation.  If you take 

            25       the 43 state parks, each exists out there for 





.
                                                                 147

             1       365 days a year.  That's 15,695 park days.  

             2       These hunts as proposed would be conducted for 

             3       1,735 park days.  However, only 209 of those 

             4       park days would exclude the public visitation 

             5       of a park.  So therefore, that would have an 

             6       impact of only 1.3 percent on general 

             7       visitation, which -- and, of course, those hunt 

             8       dates are carefully scheduled to avoid weekends 

             9       and major holidays in the first period.  The 

            10       number of hunter days -- like I said, there's a 

            11       little over 2000 -- 2043 drawn hunter 

            12       positions.  In addition to that, we have some 

            13       hunts for dove, squirrel, waterfowl on some of 

            14       these areas that would add significantly to the 

            15       number of hunters.  Those are not restricted in 

            16       number.  That's open to people either under the 

            17       $40 annual public hunting permit or, in some 

            18       cases, a $10 daily permit that's offered. 

            19                  Just off the top of my head, I would 

            20       say that the number of hunter events, daily 

            21       event, it would probably be in the neighborhood 

            22       of easily three times this number of drawn 

            23       positions, if you added the drawn and these 

            24       annual permit hunts and regular permit hunts 

            25       together. 





.
                                                                 148

             1                  But I'm counting one venture, 

             2       whether it's an hour or daylight until dark, as 

             3       a hunter event there.

             4                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  And does 

             5       that include or not include the wildlife 

             6       management areas? 

             7                  MR. KOTHMANN:  This does not include 

             8       the wildlife management areas.  Wildlife 

             9       management areas is about double this effort.  

            10       And this does not include the 100-plus dove 

            11       leases that we have.  So this is just a portion 

            12       of our overall public hunting program. 

            13                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Thanks for 

            14       the important work you do for public hunting 

            15       access in Texas.  Thank you. 

            16                  MR. KOTHMANN:  Thank you. 

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  We have two people 

            18       signed up to speak, if you don't have any 

            19       further questions of Mr. Kothmann.  Ellis 

            20       Gilleland and Kirby Brown. 

            21                  MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 

            22       Gilleland.  I'm speaking for Texas animals.  

            23       The handout I gave you previously is applicable 

            24       here, operating instruction number 24 of the 

            25       state parks division, dated May 2001.  I'm 





.
                                                                 149

             1       asking you to make this a rule because I don't 

             2       think Colonel Stinebaugh can prosecute anybody 

             3       on an operating instruction.  The next thing I 

             4       would like to emphasize is, that if you make 

             5       that a rule, that will lay the foundation, 

             6       then, for making it a rule against corn feeding 

             7       outside of the park, because you've got a 

             8       rule -- or you've got an operating instruction 

             9       that says, no, you can't feed corn inside the 

            10       park.

            11                  Okay.  The next issue I would like 

            12       to address is, is to ask you to cancel the 

            13       hunting -- next hunting season, white-tailed 

            14       deer -- oh, I got a rise over there -- next 

            15       hunting season because of the rampant poaching 

            16       that's going on at Choke Canyon State Park by 

            17       all the officials there, the game wardens, two 

            18       of them, the special park police, two of them, 

            19       the director, Lee Escamilla, one.  Those five 

            20       are the main ones.  They're allowing excess 

            21       number of people to hunt over and above what's 

            22       approved in the proclamation.

            23                  Now, I've reported to Colonel 

            24       Stinebaugh two months ago.  Nothing has been 

            25       done about it that I know of.  I don't think 





.
                                                                 150

             1       they're hanging by their thumbs.  I told him 

             2       also that the poaching of quail and possibly 

             3       dove, uh-oh, federal reg, is going on there 

             4       also.  I've got scads of documentary evidence 

             5       to prove that poaching of deer is going on with 

             6       corn, poaching of the doves and quail with milo 

             7       and bird feed all over the place, stacked up 

             8       ankle deep down there.  It's a rat's nest. 

             9                  So I'm asking you to, number one, 

            10       make this feeding thing and shooting animals 

            11       over feed a rule or law, you can make it a code 

            12       thing.  And I'm asking you to prosecute the 

            13       people that have been doing it, and I'm asking 

            14       you to preclude the next hunting season of the 

            15       poaching going on, because they're doing it 

            16       with malice and forethought. 

            17                  Now, I've got a little time left, 

            18       I'll just go on.  The poaching of white-tailed 

            19       deer has been going on down there between 1987 

            20       and 1997.  I told Colonel Stinebaugh about 

            21       this, I've got evidence to prove it.  I've 

            22       never been asked to give any testimony on it.  

            23       I've never been asked to make a sworn 

            24       statement.  The poaching, I've got scads of 

            25       videotapes and eyeball testimony of the 





.
                                                                 151

             1       poaching, the license numbers and the people 

             2       who is doing it.  I've never been asked to give 

             3       that.  Now, I'll going to try to meet with 

             4       Colonel Stinebaugh next week and I'm going to 

             5       give him the evidence, physical evidence, 

             6       material evidence of the deer poaching that's 

             7       going.  And I'm going to back off and wait. 

             8                  At some point, I'm going to get 

             9       tired of waiting and I'm going to start going 

            10       to the FBI and any other -- DPS or any other 

            11       law officer that's above you people, and I'm 

            12       going to prefer charges against y'all because 

            13       you're letting rampant poaching going on under 

            14       your purview.

            15                  MR. COOK:  Mr. Gilleland?  Thank 

            16       you, sir. 

            17                  MR. GILLELAND:  Thank you. 

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Kirby Brown. 

            19                  MR. BROWN:  Madame Chairman, 

            20       Commissioners, my name is Kirby Brown with the 

            21       Texas Wildlife Association.  We would note that 

            22       about 20 percent of the normal season on 

            23       private lands is really normal.  And maybe we 

            24       should raise that 1.2 percent on state parks 

            25       just a little bit and have more public hunting 





.
                                                                 152

             1       allowed out there.  We do want to thank Herb 

             2       and all the work that he's done through the 

             3       years to make this happen.  It is a great 

             4       program, and I think they have done a 

             5       tremendous job.  Thank you very much. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

             7       further questions from the Commission? 

             8                  MR. KOTHMANN:  Madame Chairman, my 

             9       assistant was "Johnnie-on-the-spot" and rushed 

            10       some data down to me to respond to Commissioner 

            11       Fitzsimons' question.  And, again, it's not 

            12       hunter days, but the expansion this past season 

            13       we estimated 26,777 area days open up out 

            14       there.  This is everywhere from the small dove 

            15       leases to the Big Bend Ranch State Park to the 

            16       Black Gap to the Kerr.  But it's really a 

            17       phenomenal amount of opportunity out there.  

            18       But we're seeking more still. 

            19                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Well done.  

            20       Keep it up.  Hope it's more next year.

            21                  MR. KOTHMANN:  Thank you.

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Herb.  

            23       If there are no more comments from the 

            24       Commission, is there a motion on this item? 

            25                  COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Move approval.





.
                                                                 153

             1                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Approval by 

             3       Commissioner Avila, second by Commissioner 

             4       Ramos.  All in favor say aye? 

             5                  ("Aye.")

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

             7       Hearing none, motion carries.

             8                  (Motion passes.)

             9       "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 

            10       amendments to 31 TAC Section 53.5 concerning 

            11       Public Hunting and Fishing Permits and Fees and 

            12       Sections 65.191, 65.193, and 65.194, concerning 

            13       the Public Lands Proclamation, with changes to 

            14       the proposed text as published in the February 

            15       22, 2002, issue of the Texas Register (27 

            16       TexReg 1277), located at Exhibit A."

            17       

            18       2. "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission 

            19       authorizes the hunting activities designated in 

            20       Exhibit B to be conducted on the listed units 

            21       of the state park system."

            22       

            23       3. "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission 

            24       authorizes an open hunting season on public 

            25       hunting lands to run from September 1, 2002 to 





.
                                                                 154

             1       August 31, 2003."

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I'm going to recess 

             3       the meeting for lunch.  We will go into 

             4       executive session.  Is this where I read the -- 

             5       okay.  Beginning of executive session as 

             6       required by Chapter 551 of the Government Code 

             7       referred to as the Open Meetings Law, let the 

             8       record show this meeting of the Parks and 

             9       Wildlife Commission -- we're going into recess.  

            10       Okay.  We're going into recess. 

            11                  (LUNCH RECESS)

            12       AGENDA ITEM NO. 10: ACTION - COMMISSION POLICY 

            13          MANUAL RESOLUTION/DESIGNATION OF OFFICIAL 

            14                          NONPROFIT

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  We're convening the 

            16       meeting.  Our first -- we are on Agenda Item 

            17       No. 10, an action item, Commission Policy 

            18       Manual. 

            19                  MR. McCARTY:  Chairman, 

            20       Commissioners, my name is Gene McCarty.  I'm 

            21       chief of staff.  This item is an continuation 

            22       of the implementation of statutory changes 

            23       enacted by Senate Bill 305.  To accurately 

            24       reflect the changes established by the 

            25       Department of Sunset Bill, the Commission must 





.
                                                                 155

             1       adopt changes to its policy manual.  These 

             2       include language that provides for public 

             3       comment before any major decisions, provides 

             4       for publication of Commission transcripts on 

             5       the official department Website and removes the 

             6       constituent -- or the consent agenda 

             7       guidelines. 

             8                  In addition, Senate Bill 305 

             9       requires the Commission to designate a single, 

            10       nonprofit partner as the official nonprofit 

            11       partner.  Staff recommends that the Parks and 

            12       Wildlife Foundation of Texas be designated as 

            13       the official nonprofit partner.  As a 

            14       stipulation of this designation, the Foundation 

            15       would be required to follow the best practices 

            16       of the official nonprofit partner as adopted by 

            17       the Commission at its last meeting and all 

            18       Commission rules on sponsorships.  It is 

            19       further recommended that this designation be 

            20       made in the form of a new commission policy, 

            21       commission policy number 15.  Policy amendments 

            22       and new policies must be adopted by resolution.  

            23       Staff recommends that the commission adopt the 

            24       following motion.  Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            25       Commission adopts by resolution that provides 





.
                                                                 156

             1       policy manual of the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

             2       Commission.  Any questions? 

             3                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Move approval.

             4                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second.

             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I've got a motion 

             6       from Commissioner Angelo, a second by 

             7       Commissioner Watson.  All in favor, please say 

             8       aye. 

             9                  ("Aye.")

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            11       Hearing none, motion carries.  Thank you, Gene.

            12                  (Motion passed.)

            13       "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 

            14       by resolution (Exhibit B) the revised policy 

            15       manual of the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            16       Commission (Exhibit A)."

            17         AGENDA ITEM NO. 11: BRIEFING - GAME WARDEN 

            18                    ACADEMY STATUS REPORT

            19                  (WHEREUPON, a briefing item was 

            20       presented to the Commissioners, after which, 

            21       the following proceedings were had:)

            22       AGENDA ITEM NO. 12: ACTION - NOMINATION FOR OIL 

            23         AND GAS LEASE TYLER STATE PARK-SMITH COUNTY

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 12 

            25       is an action item, Nomination for Oil and Gas 





.
                                                                 157

             1       Tyler State Park.  Mr. Ray, will you please 

             2       make your presentation.  

             3                  MR. RAY:  Madame Chairman and 

             4       Commissioners, I'm Ronnie Ray with the Land 

             5       Conservation and Acquisition Group.  The item 

             6       for your consideration today that I have is an 

             7       oil and gas nomination at Tyler State Park.  

             8       These are the terms of the lease for a 

             9       51-acre -- mineral acres of the park.  This is 

            10       the motion that's before you.  Are there any 

            11       questions? 

            12                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Madame 

            13       Chair, I believe I had all my questions 

            14       answered yesterday and this morning.  I move --

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  So are you -- is 

            16       this a motion? 

            17                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Yeah.  

            18       It's a motion, move for the adoption of the 

            19       recommendation. 

            20                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Second.

            21                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Second.

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Whoa, we have 

            23       somebody that would like to speak to this.

            24                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Oh, do we?  

            25       I'm sorry.





.
                                                                 158

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Gilleland, I 

             2       believe you asked to speak to this? 

             3                  MR. Gilleland:  Yes, ma'am, I did 

             4       ask to speak. 

             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Well, come on.

             6                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Well, I 

             7       apologize.

             8                  MR. GILLELAND:  I do have a handout, 

             9       ma'am.  My name is Ellis Gilleland.  I'm 

            10       speaking for Texas Animals.  And the handout 

            11       that I'm giving you now is really for both 

            12       items, this one and the next one.  It has to do 

            13       with the pipeline easement. 

            14                  So this is drilling.  And you've got 

            15       to have a pipeline for the drilling.  So what 

            16       I'm bringing to you is something that I brought 

            17       to your attention several meetings ago about 

            18       the easement when you wanted to emasculate the 

            19       Rule 51.92 and take out all the environmental 

            20       stuff and so forth.  And I beseeched you not 

            21       to. 

            22                  So on the easement, the thing I 

            23       beseeched you not to take off was not even 

            24       mentioned yesterday.  All this is superfluous.  

            25       It has to do with the animals, the environment, 





.
                                                                 159

             1       and so forth.  All you talked about yesterday 

             2       was the money, how much was going to be paid, 

             3       and blah blah blah.  Well, let's look at it 

             4       from the animal's side.  You did not consider 

             5       yesterday, and I assume you didn't consider the 

             6       adverse effects, impacts on the property.  

             7       That's by your -- this is your law.  This isn't 

             8       mine.  This is your law.  I'm reading your law 

             9       to you and you're not doing it, like the game 

            10       warden. 

            11                  B, prudent alternative.  You did not 

            12       discuss prudent alternatives yesterday.  You 

            13       did not discuss prudent alternatives today.  

            14       It's in your law.  There it is. 

            15                  The third item, discuss alternative 

            16       to the location of the easement.  Not done 

            17       yesterday, not done today.  I can only assume 

            18       it was done with malice or forethought to pay 

            19       off those 180 -- make those 180 bank statements 

            20       balance. 

            21                  Moving on from your law into the 

            22       Houston Chronicle, 9th of March, 2002, article 

            23       which you have in front of you, Senate passes 

            24       bill for pipeline safety.  Please note, quote, 

            25       on an average of four major, major pipeline 





.
                                                                 160

             1       accidents causing death, injury, and property 

             2       damage greater 50,000 occurred each week.  Four 

             3       major each week.  Four times 50 is over 200 per 

             4       year. 

             5                  Why can't it happen at Tyler?  Well, 

             6       it can, folks, I'll tell you, ladies and 

             7       gentlemen.  Moving down to number 2, 

             8       environmental sensitive.  Yes, Tyler is very 

             9       environmental sensitive.  We don't want to 

            10       damage those roses.  Adopt safety program.  

            11       Never mentioned yesterday or today.  Four, mark 

            12       location.  Look at your video.  There's no 

            13       location for that pipeline there, just a bare 

            14       stretch of road.  Is that in your lawyer 

            15       language that goes in there, marking the 

            16       pipeline?  No, it is not.  But it's something 

            17       that has to be considered.  You mark -- how can 

            18       you avoid ripping it up if it's not marked?  

            19       It's not marked.  The rest I'll discuss in the 

            20       next item.  Thank you. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            22       questions or comments from the Commission? 

            23                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Just a 

            24       clarification for Mr. Ray.  The proposal as to 

            25       Tyler State Park does not include drilling on 





.
                                                                 161

             1       that 51 acres.  Correct? 

             2                  MR. RAY:  Right.  All activity of 

             3       the property will be prohibited. 

             4                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Thank you.  

             5       That's all.  Thank you. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do I have a motion 

             7       on this? 

             8                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Motion.

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Second.

            10                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Second.

            11                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion and 

            12       a second.  All in favor, please say aye. 

            13                  ("Aye.")

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All opposed?  

            15       Hearing none, motion carries.  

            16                  (Motion passes.)

            17       "The Executive Director is authorized to 

            18       nominate for oil and gas lease to the Board for 

            19       Lease for Parks and Wildlife Lands, three 

            20       tracts of land consisting of 50.96 mineral 

            21       acres out of the Tyler State Park, with  

            22       minimums of $150 per acre bonus, 25 percent 

            23       royalty, $10 per acre delay rental, and a 

            24       3-year term, incorporating the restrictions set 

            25       out in Exhibit A."





.
                                                                 162

             1         AGENDA ITEM NO. 13:  ACTION - PROPOSAL FOR 

             2         PETROLEUM PIPELINE EASEMENT - RESACA DE LA 

             3               PALMA STATE PARK-CAMERON COUNTY

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda No. 13 Is an 

             5       action item, Petroleum Pipeline Easement, 

             6       Cameron County.  Mr. Gissell. 

             7                  MR. GISSELL:  Thank you, Madame 

             8       Chairman, Commissioners.  My name is Dennis 

             9       Gissell.  I'm the wildlife management area 

            10       facilities coordinator in the wildlife 

            11       division. 

            12                  Today we're here to ask for your 

            13       approval to proceed with a development of an 

            14       easement for two petroleum pipelines that were 

            15       installed in the Resaca De La Palma State Park 

            16       in Cameron County just west of Brownsville.  

            17       Late in 1999, two petroleum pipelines were 

            18       installed by a contractor of Penn Octane 

            19       Corporation without permission of Texas Parks 

            20       and Wildlife Department.  The pipelines were 

            21       constructed under a presidential permit to 

            22       provide liquid propane gas, gasoline, and 

            23       diesel to Mexico. 

            24                  This shows the boundaries of the 

            25       area with an inset for the location of 





.
                                                                 163

             1       pipelines.  This shows where the pipelines are 

             2       located in the southeast corner of the wildlife 

             3       management area -- -- or the state park.  

             4       Excuse me.  This is the right-of-way where the 

             5       two pipelines were installed approximately 1493 

             6       feet in length.  The proposal is for an 

             7       easement 30 foot in width just a fraction over 

             8       an acre.

             9                  Once the pipelines were discovered, 

            10       staff negotiated a survey of the boundary of 

            11       the eastern side of the park.  The location of 

            12       the pipelines, an archeological survey, and 

            13       damage fees and easement fees associated with 

            14       this installation.

            15                  The applicant and staff request 

            16       permission to proceed with an easement through 

            17       the board for lease of the General Land Office, 

            18       which would include a ten-year easement and a 

            19       total of $118,096 in fees, damages and fees; 

            20       $100,000 in damages, $18,096 are in easement 

            21       fees.  This concludes my presentation.  I'd be 

            22       pleased to answer any questions. 

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            24       questions from the committee?  We have one 

            25       person signed up to speak.  Ellis Gilleland.  





.
                                                                 164

             1                  MR. GILLELAND:  Thank you, Madame 

             2       Chairman, for being so gracious in letting me 

             3       speak.  And all of you, bless you.  Ellis 

             4       Gilleland, representing animal rights, who 

             5       can't be here and speak for themselves.  God 

             6       bless them, because you won't.  God have mercy 

             7       on their souls and on yours. 

             8                  Item number 5, I did not get down to 

             9       5 on Houston Chronicle nonmarks.  And 5 is 

            10       inspection.  You must inspect the -- fail to 

            11       inspect the pipelines and maintain it.  There's 

            12       nothing in your paperwork about maintenance.  

            13       And, gentlemen, I hope you're taking all this 

            14       in because this is military stuff.  This 

            15       affects military readiness and security in our 

            16       southern Brownsville area.  And God help us if 

            17       it blows up down there.  I beseech you to do 

            18       what you're supposed to do.  I don't care 

            19       whether you hate me or not.  But do what is 

            20       right.  Do what was taught to you in medical 

            21       school and save lives instead of destroying 

            22       lives.

            23                  Moving on to the third document is 

            24       the Houston Chronicle article March 13, 2002, 

            25       "Pipeline turns over 100 acres."  The salient 





.
                                                                 165

             1       point is for you lawyers, a Beaumont jury in 

             2       1997 concluded the companies who caused this 

             3       environmental damage were not liable for the 

             4       losses.  Peg that.  What do you call that?  

             5       That is a bedrock case, and you'll see it again 

             6       and again.  It is a judgment and it's affirmed 

             7       by the Court.  The Sheldon Lake.  We talked 

             8       about Sheldon Lake about ten times this time.  

             9       Sheldon Lake was destroyed to the tune of $36 

            10       million plus ten -- 36 million plus 10 million 

            11       damage.  In my book that makes $46 million.  

            12       You people are rich, maybe 46 million don't 

            13       mean a hill of beans to you, but it means a lot 

            14       to Bomer.  Bowmer haggled you folks for 200K.  

            15       What would he do for 46?  He would crucify you, 

            16       and I would clap.  Thank you. 

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any 

            18       further comments from staff?  Any further 

            19       comments from the commission?

            20                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Move approval.

            21                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion by 

            23       Commissioner Angelo, a second by Commissioner 

            24       Ramos.  All in favor say aye.  

            25                  ("Aye.")





.
                                                                 166

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

             2       Hearing none, motion carries.  

             3                  (Motion passes.)

             4       "The Executive Director is authorized to 

             5       approve the granting of a petroleum product 

             6       transmission pipeline easement to the Board of 

             7       Lease for Parks and Wildlife Lands.  Damage to 

             8       wildlife habitat is assessed at $100,000.  In 

             9       addition, a fee of $10/rod for each of the two 

            10       pipelines in this 90.48 rod easement are 

            11       assessed at $1809.70 per year, for a total of 

            12       $18,096.96 for the 10 year easement.  Damages 

            13       are to be paid in monthly installments for 12 

            14       months and easement fees are to paid in one 

            15       lump sum payment, incorporating the 

            16       restrictions set out in Exhibit A."

            17            AGENDA ITEM NO. 14: ACTION - EASEMENT 

            18                  ASSIGNMENTS-TRAVIS COUNTY

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 14 

            20       is an action item, Easement Assignments, Travis 

            21       County.  Mr. Bauer, will you please make your 

            22       presentation.

            23                  MR. BAUER:  Madame Chairman and 

            24       Commissioners, my name is Jack Bauer, land 

            25       conservation program director.  This item 





.
                                                                 167

             1       develops right-of-way easement recommendations 

             2       for the board for lease for Parks and Wildlife 

             3       lands.  As you're aware, the department has 

             4       supervised the construction of fiberoptic 

             5       conduit along Smith School Road at the 

             6       department headquarters with several fiberoptic 

             7       cable providers.  These activities are being 

             8       authorized through issuance of construction 

             9       permits.  The department and these two service 

            10       providers request conversion of these 

            11       contractual agreements to right-of-way 

            12       easements. 

            13                  Staff recommends the Commission 

            14       consider the motion before you that will 

            15       recommend the board for lease assign and 

            16       existing ten-year easement to MCI World Com and 

            17       issue a ten-year easement to XO Texas, 

            18       Incorporated.  Appropriate fees have already 

            19       been collected from these corporations.  And I 

            20       would be happy to answer any questions. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any 

            22       comments from the Commission on this item? 

            23                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I'd make a 

            24       motion.

            25                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Montgomery has 





.
                                                                 168

             1       made a motion.  Do we have a second in at.

             2                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second.

             3                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Second by 

             4       Commissioner Watson.  All in favor? 

             5                  ("Aye.")

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

             7       Hearing none, motion carries.

             8                  (Motion passes.)

             9       "The Executive Director is authorized to 

            10       recommend to the Board for Lease for Parks and 

            11       Wildlife Lands the granting of: (1) an easement 

            12       assignment of existing easement ME #20000012 to 

            13       MCI WorldCom Network Services, Inc. under all 

            14       the existing terms and conditions set forth in 

            15       that easement, and (2) an easement to XO Texas, 

            16       Inc. incorporating all the terms and conditions 

            17       existing in the 'CONSTRUCTION PERMIT AND 

            18       CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY' dated January 18, 

            19       2001 between TPWD and XO Texas, Inc. attached as 

            20       Exhibit B." 

            21             AGENDA ITEM NO. 15:  ACTION - LAND 

            22                    DONATION-ORANGE COUNTY

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 15, 

            24       Land Donation, Orange County.  Mr. Bauer, 

            25       again, will you please make your presentation.





.
                                                                 169

             1                  MR. BAUER:  Yes.  Thank you.  This 

             2       item develops a land donation recommendation at 

             3       the lower Neches Wildlife Management Area in 

             4       Orange County.  The estate of Nelda Stark has 

             5       offered approximately 18 acres to the 

             6       Department as a habitat addition to the Old 

             7       River Unit.  This follows a generous donation 

             8       in 1993 of over 3,000 acres. 

             9                  Staff recommends the Commission 

            10       consider the motion before you that will 

            11       authorize the executive director to take all 

            12       necessary steps to acquire this property as a 

            13       donation from the Nelda Stark estate. 

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  And we have a 

            15       motion by Commissioner Angelo and a second by 

            16       Commissioner Montgomery.  All in favor, please 

            17       say aye.  

            18                  ("Aye.")

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            20       Hearing none, motion carries.

            21                  (Motion passes.)

            22       "The Executive Director is authorized to 

            23       recommend to the Board for Lease for Parks and 

            24       Wildlife land the granting of: (1) an easement 

            25       assignment of existing easement ME #20000012 to 





.
                                                                 170

             1       MCI WorldCom Network Services, Inc. under all 

             2       the existing terms and conditions set forth in 

             3       that easement, and (2) an easement to XO Texas, 

             4       Inc. incorporating all the terms and conditions 

             5       existing in the 'CONSTRUCTION PERMIT AND 

             6       CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY' dated January 18, 

             7       2001 between TPWD and XO Texas, Inc. attached as 

             8       Exhibit B."

             9             AGENDA ITEM NO. 15:  ACTION - LAND 

            10                    DONATION-ORANGE COUNTY

            11                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 16, 

            12       also an action item, Land Acquisition, Fort 

            13       Bend County.  Mr. Bauer.  

            14                  MR. BAUER:  Thank you.  

            15       Approximately 80 acres of agricultural land has 

            16       been offered to the Department at the Brazos 

            17       Bend State Park in Fort Bend County.  The 

            18       acreage will provide grassland habitat for 

            19       restoration of wet development and provide 

            20       buffer between the park and nearby development. 

            21                  Staff recommends the Commission 

            22       consider the motion that you have before you 

            23       that will authorize the executive director to 

            24       take the necessary steps to purchase the 

            25       property.  And I would be happy to answer any 





.
                                                                 171

             1       questions. 

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any questions from 

             3       the Commission?  Do we have a motion? 

             4                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Motion.

             5                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Second.

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Motion from 

             7       Commissioner Rising, second by Commissioner 

             8       Angelo.  All in favor please say aye?  

             9                  ("Aye.")

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Hearing 

            11       none, motion carries.

            12                  (Motion passes.)

            13       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

            14       all necessary steps to acquire approximately 80 

            15       acres in Fort Bend County as a habitat addition 

            16       to Brazos Bend State Park."

            17             AGENDA ITEM NO. 17:  ACTION - LAND 

            18                  ACQUISITION-HARRIS COUNTY

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 17 

            20       calls for an action item, Land Acquisition in 

            21       Harris County. 

            22                  MR. BAUER:  Yes.  This item relates 

            23       to land being offered to the Department as part 

            24       of an environmental damage lawsuit settlement 

            25       stemming from a 1994 pipeline rupture near 





.
                                                                 172

             1       Houston.  A U.S. district court settlement 

             2       agreement recommends that approximately 102 

             3       acres of bottom land hardwood habitat be 

             4       provided to the Department as an addition to 

             5       Sheldon Lake State Park.  Staff supports the 

             6       recommendation presuming that environmental due 

             7       diligence sufficiently justify that the 

             8       property is environmentally safe.  Minimal 

             9       management funds are also being provided. 

            10                  Staff recommends the motion 

            11       considered here that will authorize the 

            12       executive director to take the necessary steps 

            13       to accept the property.  I'll be happy to 

            14       answer questions. 

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            16       questions from the Commission?  Do I have a 

            17       motion? 

            18                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  So moved. 

            19                  VICE-CHAIR ANGELO:  Second. 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Motion by 

            21       Commissioner Fitzsimons, second by Commissioner 

            22       Ramos.  All in favor say aye?  

            23                  ("Aye.")

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            25       Hearing none, motion carried.  





.
                                                                 173

             1                  (Motion passed.)

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Oh, dear.  I have 

             3       one person that needs to speak up to this.  

             4       Let's back up a bit.  I'm so sorry.  George 

             5       Wilkinson, could you step up, please? 

             6                  MR. WILKINSON:  Yeah.  George 

             7       Wilkinson with Vinson & Elkins in Houston.  I'm 

             8       here for Colonial Pipeline Company just to 

             9       answer questions really.  I didn't have -- 

            10       wasn't going take the Commission's time with 

            11       any statement. 

            12                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I apologize.  You 

            13       came all this way.  Are there any questions of 

            14       Mr. Wilkinson from the Commission?  Thanks for 

            15       coming. 

            16                  MR. WILKINSON:  Thank you.

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Okay.  Let's do 

            18       that again.  Do I have a motion?  We had a 

            19       motion from Commissioner Fitzsimons.  We had a 

            20       second from Commissioner Ramos.  All in favor, 

            21       please say aye. 

            22                  ("Aye.")

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All opposed?  

            24       Hearing none, motion carried.

            25                  (Motion passes.)





.
                                                                 174

             1       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

             2       all necessary steps to accept approximately 

             3       101.9 acres in Harris County as a addition to 

             4       the Sheldon Lake State Park as recommended in 

             5       the United States District Court for the 

             6       Southern District of Texas, Houston Division; 

             7       Cause No. H-013171; U.S. and the State of Texas 

             8       v. Equilon Pipeline Company, LLC, f/d/b/a 

             9       Texaco Pipeline, Inc. and Colonial Pipeline 

            10       Co."

            11             AGENDA ITEM NO. 19:  ACTION - LAND 

            12                   ACQUISITION-BEXAR COUNTY

            13                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 18 

            14       is not on here today.  It's been pulled, so we 

            15       move on to Agenda Item No. 19, Land 

            16       Acquisition, Bexar County.  Jeff Francell, 

            17       would you please make your presentation. 

            18                  MR. FRANCELL:  Madame Chairman, 

            19       members of the Commission, I'm Jeff Francell.  

            20       I'm here to talk today about a land acquisition 

            21       item, Government Canyon State Natural Area.  We 

            22       have some visitors here; Susan Craine from City 

            23       of San Antonio and Trey Cooksey from Government 

            24       Canyon State Natural Area staff, as well as 

            25       Paige Cooper from the Trust Republic Land. 





.
                                                                 175

             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Glad to have you 

             2       here. 

             3                  MR. FRANCELL:  Government Canyon is 

             4       in northwest Bexar County near Helotes.  It is 

             5       a fairly large state natural area which opens 

             6       officially to the public next year, so just 

             7       over 7,000 acres, close to downtown 

             8       San Antonio, with a lot of recreation potential 

             9       and also conservation value. 

            10                  The reason that we're here today is 

            11       because of a proposition that the City of 

            12       San Antonio that passed in May of 2000.  I've 

            13       got a little bit of a typo up there.  

            14       Ms. Craine reminded me that the Proposition 3 

            15       sales tax rate is actually an eighth of a cent, 

            16       which raised $45 million for protecting the 

            17       Edwards Aquifer recharge and providing public 

            18       access to the outdoors in Bexar County.  To 

            19       date, 3500 acres have been acquired and about 

            20       23 million has been expended. 

            21                  This is a map of the park.  There's 

            22       two tracks in purple that the City of 

            23       San Antonio has recently purchased.  The 

            24       property we're talking about today is in green.  

            25       It's the 1160-acre -- part of the 1160 -- or 





.
                                                                 176

             1       part of the larger Kallison Ranch.  It's about 

             2       1160 acres.

             3                  The purchase price for the property 

             4       would be 5.8 million.  About three quarters of 

             5       the property are on the recharge zone for the 

             6       Edwards Aquifer, and the property has 

             7       significant habitat value.  A very positive 

             8       aspect of this acquisition is that it buffers 

             9       the new visitor's center currently being 

            10       constructed.

            11                  The acquisition will involve 

            12       purchasing the property.  And you actually have 

            13       the wrong presentation loaded.  The other one 

            14       has the motion on it.  The acquisition will 

            15       involve selling a conservation easement for the 

            16       City of San Antonio for half the purchase 

            17       price. 

            18                  And the motion that I'd ask you to 

            19       consider today is to allow Texas Parks and 

            20       Wildlife to acquire the Kallison property and 

            21       subsequently sell the conservation easement to 

            22       the City of San Antonio.

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            24       questions of Mr. Francell?  There is no one 

            25       signed up to sign on this item.  Commissioner 





.
                                                                 177

             1       Fitzsimons? 

             2                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Madame 

             3       Chair, I want to thank you, Jeff, for your hard 

             4       work.  The Government Canyon Project is 

             5       something I've been watching since the RTC 

             6       days.  And you've done a great job and you're 

             7       to be commended.  And thank you to the City of 

             8       San Antonio for the great work you've done on 

             9       the conservation. 

            10                  MR. FRANCELL:  Thank you.

            11                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a comment to 

            12       make, as well.  Likewise, congratulations.  And 

            13       I'm glad to have our friends from Government 

            14       Canyon here today.  I was recently there and 

            15       got to see firsthand what a precious resource 

            16       and treasure this is already.  I also want to 

            17       comment that Government Canyon is a model, I 

            18       think, for us.  It is close to a densely 

            19       populated urban area that provides tremendous 

            20       recreation opportunity, education and outreach 

            21       opportunity, as well as helping us preserve 

            22       precious natural resource, mainly the Edwards 

            23       Aquifer.  Thank you-all very much. 

            24                  Are there any other questions?  Do I 

            25       have a motion? 





.
                                                                 178

             1                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  So moved.  

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Second? 

             3                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor, 

             5       please say aye.  

             6                  ("Aye.")

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Hearing 

             8       none, motion carries. 

             9                  (Motion passes.)

            10       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

            11       all necessary steps to acquire the 1160 acre 

            12       Kallison Ranch from the Trust for Public Land 

            13       as an addition to Government Canyon State 

            14       Natural Area.  The Executive Director is also 

            15       authorized to sell a conservation easement on 

            16       the property to the City of San Antonio."

            17       AGENDA ITEM NO. 20: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION - 

            18                       BRAZORIA COUNTY

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda Item No. 20, 

            20       Land Acquisition, Brazoria County, 

            21       Mr. Francell. 

            22                  MR. FRANCELL:  Thank you.  This is a 

            23       new project for Texas Parks and Wildlife, the 

            24       Levi Jordan Plantation.  We're talking today 

            25       about a small acquisition adjacent to the 





.
                                                                 179

             1       plantation property.  Levi Jordan Plantation is 

             2       in Brazoria County.  It's a historical site and 

             3       was approved with a Proposition 8, ballot 

             4       initiative.  It has significant archaeological 

             5       and historical value.  And is the first new 

             6       state historic site since 1987.  The property 

             7       that we're talking about today is 22 acres 

             8       that's located adjacent to a county road in 

             9       Brazoria County, as well as the Levi Jordan 

            10       Plantation. 

            11                  The property is heavily wooded, it's 

            12       currently for sale.  Parks and Wildlife 

            13       currently has a contract on the property, 

            14       subject to your approval.  And there's 3,000 

            15       feet of frontage on both county roads. 

            16                  The motion is to authorize the 

            17       executive director to take the necessary steps 

            18       to acquire the 22 acres as part of the Levi 

            19       Jordan Plantation historic site.

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            21       questions for Mr. Francell from the Commission?  

            22       Do I have a motion? 

            23                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  So moved.

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion by 

            25       Commissioner Watson, a second by Commissioner 





.
                                                                 180

             1       Angelo.  All in favor?  

             2                  ("Aye.")

             3                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Hearing 

             4       none, motion carries.  Thank you. 

             5                  (Motion passes.)

             6       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

             7       all necessary steps to acquire the 22 acre 

             8       Graham property as an addition to the Levi 

             9       Jordan Plantation Historical Site."

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Cook, is there 

            11       any other business to come before this 

            12       commission today? 

            13                  MR. COOK:  No, ma'am, there is not.

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I declare ourselves 

            15       adjourned.  Thank you very much. 

            16                          *-*-*-*-*

            17                     (MEETING ADJOURNED.)

            18                          *-*-*-*-*

            19       

            20    

            21    

            22    

            23    

            24    

            25    





.
                                                                 181

             1                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

             2       STATE OF TEXAS   )

             3       COUNTY OF TRAVIS )

             4                   I, MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, a 

             5       Certified Court Reporter in and for the State 

             6       of Texas, do hereby certify that the above and 

             7       foregoing 180 pages constitute a full, true and 

             8       correct transcript of the minutes of the Texas 

             9       Parks and Wildlife Commission on APRIL 4, 2002, 

            10       in the commission hearing room of the Texas 

            11       Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, 

            12       Austin, Travis County, Texas.

            13                   I FURTHER CERTIFY that a 

            14       stenographic record was made by me a the time 

            15       of the public meeting and said stenographic 

            16       notes were thereafter reduced to computerized 

            17       transcription under my supervision and control.

            18                   WITNESS MY HAND this the 14th day 

            19       of May, 2001. 

            20       
                     
            21                                                           
                                 MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, RPR, CSR NO. 
            22                      3226 
                                 Expiration Date:  12-31-02
            23                   3101 Bee Caves Road
                                 Centre II, Suite 220
            24                   Austin, Texas  78746
                                 (512) 328-5557
            25       
                     




.
                                                                 182

             1       APPROVED this the ____ day of ___________ 2002.
                     
             2       
                     
             3                                                         
                                 Katharine Armstrong Idsal, Chairman
             4       
                     
             5                                                       
                                 Ernest Angelo, Jr, Vice Chairman
             6       
                     
             7                                                       
                                 John Avila, Jr., Member
             8       
                     
             9                                                       
                                 Joseph B. C. Fitzsimons, Member
            10       
                     
            11                                                        
                                 Alvin L. Henry, Member
            12       
                     
            13                                                        
                                 Philip Montgomery, III, Member
            14       
                     
            15                                                       
                                 Donato D. Ramos, Member
            16       
                     
            17                                                       
                                 Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Member                  
            18       
                     
            19                                                        
                                 Mark E. Watson, Jr., Member
            20       
                     
            21       
                     
            22                          *-*-*-*-*
                                             
            23    

            24    

            25    






Top of Page
Back to Top
Back to Top